From Team Lead To Organization Leader

Managing up sounds like a political game until you realize it is mostly a thinking game. We talk about the moment leaders get promoted and suddenly discover that running a productive team is not enough. Influence now requires calm brain control, strong questions, and the courage to bring a well-reasoned point of view to peers and bosses without turning it into a fight.

We dig into the difference between panic mode and logic mode at work: nodding along while you disagree, quietly refusing to follow through, or reacting defensively when a leader pushes a direction you do not like. Instead, we walk through how we prepare for a tough conversation by getting clear on what success looks like, exploring options, weighing upside and downside, and then inviting dialogue with “What do you think?” That shift turns “managing up” into real stakeholder management and executive communication.

We also challenge a popular leadership story: “I’m going to take care of my people no matter what.” We unpack why caring for your team starts with delivering the right results for the organization and growing people for the future, not shielding them from every hard ask today. Along the way, we talk about expanding your view beyond your vertical, using curiosity to learn how the business works, and why the behavior some call “brown nosing” is often just relationship-building before you need it.

If you want to lead beyond your job title and influence decisions without ego or drama, press play. Subscribe, share this with a new manager, and leave a review telling us: what is the hardest part of managing up for you?

Transcript

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Karman 0:30

Good morning, Scott and Tammy.

Scott 0:33

Good morning, Carmen. Yo, yo, Carmen.

Karman 0:36

We've been working a lot lately with newish leaders, I have at least. And one of the skill sets that I've been thinking a lot about is that place where leaders have moved up in the organization. And maybe they started at sort of a team lead, sort of

The Shift Beyond Team Leadership

Karman 0:59

supervisor place where their main responsibility was keeping their team productive and you know, keeping the wheels on the bus for the team. And as they progress in that role or roles higher than that, the skill set that they're sometimes missing is the managing up piece or the how to manage your peers. And I don't mean that in a manipulative way. And so I I think my question for you to get today is how do you help leaders get past, grow beyond? I'm good at leading my team to some of those more expansive points of view where they're really contributing as a leader in the organization. What are some of the brain shifts that need to happen or skills that people need as they make that growth?

Scott 2:08

Well, I think there's a one foundational one that seems to elude many of us, and that's the ability to think.

Tammy 2:19

I knew there was a twist. Scott, why don't why don't you tell us about that lack of ability to think? Like what is it? I just oh, so much ego. So much ego.

Scott 2:35

I yes, I have enough ego to go around.

Why Thinking Becomes The Skill

Scott 2:39

I'm gonna give it out. I'm gonna start giving it out. Christmas presents. Sell little bottles of it for you. Bergmeier ego. $20 a year.

Karman 2:49

Make sure the top of those bottles has a sprinkler hole on, you know, it's not one big hole at the top of the bottle. Oh, yeah. It's like a series of little holes because you don't want somebody to get too much of that. Yeah, yeah.

Tammy 3:02

And think about it like we could have a whole campaign. B Bergmeier Ego. Oh, yeah. You need a little sprinkle of B. Yes. Oh, yeah.

Scott 3:12

We're we're adding this to the merch store, just so you know. Yeah. Yep.

Tammy 3:16

All right. So let's talk about this ability to think, right? What are you really thinking?

Scott 3:22

What we're really saying is, you know, in those moments, and especially the scenario where it's like, I have to manage up. Can I be in a in the you know the logic part of my brain? Or am I in a panic mode because it's like, oh, that's my boss, and I'm just supposed to do what my boss wants, and I can't push back on my boss, and I can't have a company, you know, that frankly, that prevents many people because

Panic Mode Versus Clear Questions

Scott 3:46

it's like, well, that's my boss. Or they get to it and they say, Well, yeah, I'm not really gonna do that because I don't like it, or it's not my job, or it's not my job description. So I yeah, I'm good, you know, I'm just gonna nod my head, but I'm really not gonna do it, or I'm gonna half-ass it versus asking a few questions, getting clarity. And so to me, it's like, can I manage that part of my brain to ask questions and be in relationships with that person, whether that's a peer or a boss. And am I willing to say, hey, let's talk this through because I see that a little different, and I'm concerned about this, or I think we should go this direction because I think that's one. I think the other part of thinking is we get stuck in thinking in my vertical versus thinking about the organization. I can't influence my peers and my boss if I am thinking about only my team.

Tammy 4:45

So the self-interest, right? So my team is self-interest, right, versus thinking in a way that it is organizationally across the organization focused. Yes. And

Stop Leading Only Your Vertical

Tammy 4:59

to me, there is a maturity step in that because I think when we first become, you know, we're an individual contributor. How am I seeing? How am I making a difference? And then when we first step into that supervisor or team lead kind of a role, it's like I need to take care of my team, right? I mean, that's like they think that's their job. Your job is to take care of me and mine. My job is to get production in my area done. So we end up kind of have with these blinders on that allows us to see our vertical, the place that we are, instead of horizontally the place that the organization is in. And I think that's a really normal shift.

Scott 5:44

Yeah, and it's it's I think it's good for us to also remind that that topic is important. That is, as a leader, that is my responsibility. That's just not number one.

Tammy 5:57

When you say that, which one is is important and is not number one?

Scott 6:01

Well, when you say, hey, I need to get results and I need to manage my I I get that. That is part of your responsibility, it's just not your top responsibility. And the top responsibility is this is a tough one because this may be unpopular. I believe the top two, okay. Number one is I'm getting the right results to further the organization. Not to further my team. So when I hear like, oh, I need to get production in my area. No, you need to get the right production in your area that

The Real Order Of Leadership Priorities

Scott 6:33

furthers the organization, okay? And then number two is growing your people for the future, and then number three is protecting your people, etc., etc.

Tammy 6:43

So got think about that. You've just turned like what is my job as a leader upside down? Because most individuals coming into this leadership spot, okay. I cannot tell you how many times I'll hear this. My boss that I had before that sucked and they didn't take care of their people, and I'm gonna take care of my people, okay? And when you come into the job going, hey, they didn't do it right, the right thing to do is take care of my people. You just said like the third thing is taking care of my people, which means they didn't really recognize or understand the roles, the responsibilities of the job that they've just said yes to.

Scott 7:33

And I and I think the tape the taking care of people, I think has been bastardized.

Tammy 7:39

What do you mean by that?

Scott 7:40

When I'm when I'm doing the first two, I am taking care of the people. If I do the things we're kind of talking about, like, oh yeah, I'm gonna protect my people, I'm gonna make sure their job is easy, I'm gonna like, yeah, I want you to do that if it's fulfilling number one and number two. If it's not fulfilling number one and number two, you aren't taking care of them. You're actually hurting them because so if you're the CEO and you're not you are putting the organization at risk and maybe out of business, or now I can't give raises next year because I've done all this other stuff that I really shouldn't have. Like we were so right now focused versus what does next month, next quarter, next year look like, and and frankly, we f it up.

Tammy 8:25

So this piece, right? This is a part of what I would say, kind of having a bigger understanding, contextual understanding of what success looks like, and part of the journey of that leadership trajectory, right? Is really when you first come in, you don't have the understanding of necessarily what long-term success looks like.

Curiosity Builds Influence With Peers

Tammy 8:55

You have an understanding about what it's like to work in this department, you have an understanding of the relationships, you have an understanding of how sometimes we aren't seen the way that that we would like to be seen as a department. There's all there's stuff that you understand, but it's very much inside that vertical. And so part of this thing, and Scott, you're talking about thinking, like we have to become better thinkers. I'll come back to that in a minute. But the first piece of that is having a broader understanding of how an organization works, how we make money, what things impact others in the organization, not just ourselves. It's like, remember when you have a toddler and they think the whole world evolves around them, right? And we spend the entire time as a toddler through the time period that they get into their 20s as parents have their children understand the world does not evolve around you. Okay. You are part of a family, you are part of a community, you are part of a society. What is your role and responsibility to the broader instead of just you in that particular spot? That same thing happens as you go through leadership roles and you step up, is you start having a bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger understanding of like how do I fit in that world? So one of those pieces is right, recognize that that's a very important spot for you to get more and more to be more and more successful and to continue to grow inside the organization is just understand these bigger context situations. And the only way that you do that is to interact with your peers and interact with the people who are level above you.

Scott 10:43

And we talk about this interact and be curious, not interact in a judgmental or no, like I know more than it's no, I need to be curious, I need to understand.

Tammy 10:54

Listen, ask questions, ask questions.

Scott 10:57

Oh, why is that important versus that important?

Tammy 11:00

And think about this for just a minute. How many times have we heard well that leader is a brown noser? Okay.

Scott 11:06

Oh, yeah.

Tammy 11:07

And one of the things is we have someone who's actually trying to learn this stuff, and they're talking to their peers and they're talking to upper management, they're asking questions, they're trying to understand, and all of their peers are like, Yeah, that person's just brown nosing, they're just trying to get ahead. Well, to be honest with you, this networking piece, this thing that we call brown nosing, that is the curiousness, if it's done well, that is the curiousness that is building a relationship before you need it. That is learning more than you know today and expanding your perspective. And too often we are judgmental about people doing that instead of recognizing the value. And Scott, if you remember when you and I first started working together, one of the things I told you to do is you have to go out and talk to people and ask questions and learn, right? And that a little bit a little bit, you did it a lot of bit. I mean, heck, you ended up ending uh in Washington, DC, talking with senators and the president of the United States. Oh my god, I actually wanted you to do it inside the organization. You're just like, ah, heck that I think I'll go to the community, right? But the piece about that that was so interesting is that is the place and space that we actually start learning more. And it is this curiousness. We think we need to go fight the good fight when we actually need to go seek understanding, and that I think is a piece of this spot where if we actually one recognize that it is a journey where our world is going to expand if we allow it to, two, we need to seek that leveling up understanding in that spot. And Scott, in that process, then I'm going to come back to thinking. We oftentimes argue, okay, hey, you're wrong. And we're arguing not from a place where we've thought it through, it's from a place where it's reactive instead of responsive. All right. And if we really want people to think, it's like, guys, before you go argue, think this thing through. What's happening right now? Okay. What is the success outcome?

Think It Through Then Listen

Tammy 13:24

We know when we hit this, that is success, right? What does that really look like? What could we do? What are the as I look at those options and alternatives, which one makes the most sense? The most upside with the least amount of downside. Okay, uh, that would lead me to this conclusion. Now I've thought it through and I can go have the conversation and say, this is I I see it a little differently. This is what I'm thinking. And then as you share that, say, what do you think? And then listen, because they might have more information, more context, a different perspective. And now that's another place that I'm learning. So it's not about going and fighting, managing up, it's coming to the table with something that's thought through, bringing it in a way that people can hear, and then continuing to learn in that particular process. And when you do that, you are managing up, you are managing across, but it takes this spot of recognizing that it's not fighting the good fight and taking care of my people, it's taking care of the organization so that we can get the results that in the end will take care of my people.