Leaders Mistake Withdrawal For Buy In All The Time

The moment people stop fighting you can feel like relief, but it can also be the start of the real problem. We talk about the withdrawal stage on the change curve and how it shows up as quiet disengagement: head nods, fast agreement, and “just tell me what to do” energy that looks like cooperation but isn’t commitment. We’ve both mistaken that silence for acceptance, only to find out later it was “false acceptance” and the person either checks out or quits.

We break down why compliance can be a warning sign in organizational change and change management, especially when leaders unintentionally reward people for going along without thinking. We share practical ways to spot the difference between someone who is complying while learning versus someone who is complying because they have given up. A big theme is what to do in real time: shift the conversation from feelings to execution by asking clear, logic-based questions like what would make this work, what would be tough, and what options we can test.

We also dig into a simple tool we love: an impact map. It’s a spreadsheet-based approach to list every impacted person, predict likely reactions, and plan mitigation before you announce the change, then revisit it to catch surprises early. Finally, we talk about culture and psychological safety: making it okay to disagree, and when needed, having an honest alignment conversation that includes a dignified exit strategy instead of letting resentment go underground.

If you lead teams through change, listen, share this with a leader who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What’s the clearest sign of “quiet quitting” you’ve seen during a change?

Transcript

Greetings And A Travel Detour

Karman 0:30

Good morning, Tammy and Scott. Good morning, Carmen.

Tammy 0:34

Hello, Carmen. How are you today? It has been a good morning already.

Scott 0:42

It has been a pretty decent morning. Yes. I I got back, you know, I got back to the I drove up the drive of the lane at about 215 a.m. And I am here on a podcast at seven. It's a great day.

Tammy 0:59

Woohoo! Way to get some sleep, Scott.

Scott 1:01

Yeah, it's amazing. I have learned some amazing travel tips. When you're when your flight is delayed and your flight is gonna land 20 minutes after boarding starts for your next flight, if you get on chat with the agent on the Wi-Fi, they will hold a future flight for you so that if you miss your flight, you're automatically booked on the next one. Free tip for you.

Tammy 1:26

Well, that's kind of interesting. So I assume you missed your first flight and you got the second flight. I made it you made it and you still didn't get a little two?

Scott 1:34

Uh yeah, because that one was also delayed then. And so much, it has so much weather in Denver. The runways had some of the tarmac had like probably two inches of standing water on them. Wow. There was so much rain came through, and so they had ground stop for an hour. Yeah, anyway. So yeah, I'm great, which has nothing to do with the podcast topic.

Tammy 2:01

Or it might, who knows? We'll see if Carmen can tie this random thing into what she had planned today. She's thinking deeply, I'm sure, about it.

Karman 2:10

Yeah, I think that means nope. Uh I know the pressure. I'm really thinking about a different conversation that we had a few days ago about change. And um, in the eight stages of change, one of those stages is withdrawal. And it's uh it's parallel to depression

Withdrawal And Disengagement In Change

Karman 2:40

in the five stages of grief, if we're making those comparisons. And my aha has been that withdrawal can look like different things, that maybe even disengagement is a better word for that. And starting to recognize like how many organizations we work with where the culture is sort of stuck in that spot, particularly when it looks like I'm just gonna say yes without thinking about it, like that disengaged, not like I'm saying no, not like I'm walking away withdrawal, but I'm not bringing my full self or my full thought processes to the table. And so I my question for you guys today is just like, how have you seen that play out in organizations when that is a part of their culture? And then maybe that's not quite the way to describe it, but when you see it happening throughout an organization, like how do you recognize that and what can they do? What can leaders do to not be stuck there?

Tammy 3:54

So, Carmen, there's a piece about this that's really, really interesting because I think as leaders, when people come in to withdrawal, they seem more compliant. Okay. Great word, great word. Yeah. And when people are more compliant, they're finally like, good, they're not fighting me anymore. Okay. So they think maybe the battle's over. But I will tell you that it's just gone underground. So what I mean by that is like I'm not expressing all of that anymore. It doesn't mean I'm with you. It doesn't

Compliance That Goes Underground

Tammy 4:24

mean that I'm going along the path. What it really means is I've just kind of given up. Okay.

Karman 4:31

As a leader, I have often mistaken this in my people, this stage for acceptance. I'm like, yeah, exactly what you said. They're not fighting me anymore. Excellent. They've accepted it. It's all good. And then two weeks later they quit. And I realized, like, oh, that wasn't acceptance. That was, I don't give a shit anymore.

Scott 4:52

And as you described it, what I keep what I kept thinking about is, and this is terrible research, but it is just the research. The old, oh, you have the hamster or the dog, when they do certain things, there's a shock on the floor, and that trains them to not do it, versus if you just randomly shock and there's no rhyme or reason, they eventually just give up and lay down.

Tammy 5:18

And honestly, I I'm Scott, I'm actually glad you brought that in because this piece of it, and it is like all of us, most people, right? Like adore pets, adore dogs, right? I mean that spot. And you think about here's the thing. Yeah. Hey now, hey now, and you have Tom, so don't even try that. Yeah, but that's a common. I always, I always in my head I see a golden retriever, which is one of those dogs that have like that face that says, I love you, and smile, and they're happy. And I see this golden retriever in this test that they're in, where they keep trying to do what you want them to do, okay, but it doesn't, they can't figure it out. They try left, they try right, they try over, they try back to the city. You're gonna make me cry, Tammy. You're gonna make me cry. I know, and then because they can't find the solution, there is no solution, they just lay down and take it. And and think about that dog and that face and that, you know, they want to please their master so much. And I do think sometimes that is what we're talking about here, Scott. I I I hate the visual, and I think it is accurate in that spot because it does break my heart, and it should break our heart, that we have someone who is trying, and then they just can't they can't figure it out, and then they're like, Okay, well, or can't or won't, right?

Scott 6:49

Because I think there's there's some some places they can't figure it out, and some and sometimes it's like, no, I don't, I don't want to, right?

Tammy 6:57

Okay, but the giving up piece, right? And so my mom, she passed uh year, year and a half ago, 94 years old. My mom had a form of Parkinson's, and she you know, struggled with not being independent, not being able to take care of her, not always, you know, being able to walk, not being able to do things for herself, especially at the end. And she got mad and she got angry about it. And I will tell you, one of the things that I actually appreciated about my mom, even though it was hard, okay, was that she was still fighting. Okay. She was even the day before she died, she was still fighting the fight, right? She never got compliant, she never laid down, she was just like, and she was pissed off. And you know, there's this thing where I think there's something about maybe celebrating as a leader that I have someone who cares enough to fight versus someone who just goes, okay, if that's if that's what it is, I'll just get compliant and I'll I'll do it. And I'm guilty of it. We were just talking about a client earlier where, in all honesty, I was like, Oh, this is stupid. What they want is stupid, but if they want it, I'll just give it to them, okay? Instead of like fighting the fight. I mean, it's easy to fall into this piece, right? And it's easy for leaders to think, well, thank heavens they finally come on board when that's not really what happens.

Scott 8:25

We're just saying there's really is it's to me, it's this piece of as a leader, how am I recognizing, like, are okay, they're fighting, and are they fighting for a good reason? And okay, are they overfighting? Because if they're overfighting, then I I need to address that. Okay. There's also a piece of if I get compliance, because I I would say, you know what, on that change curve before acceptance, I do believe you get compliance. There's there is this

How Leaders Spot False Acceptance

Scott 8:54

emotional kind of thing. And now as I'm working to figure it out, figure out, like, okay, I'm not totally in acceptance and I've and I've got it, but I'm like right on the cusp. I do believe there's this element of I'm compliant and trying to figure it out because I'm really trying to understand. Or am I compliant because I'm quitting and staying? Or I'm compliant because I'm like, yeah, peace out, I'm out. And so it's like, how do you tell? Because those are gonna look really, really similar.

Tammy 9:29

I was gonna say, you know, I don't know that we can diagnose it, right? It's it's not as if as a leader, I go, oh, the clue of which seat they're sitting in in this one spot is like this.

Scott 9:43

It looks like I can't diagnose it by only looking. So what can we do, Scott? Well, number one, I need to watch over time. Like it's not a I'm look one and done, right? Set it and forget it. It's not that. It's okay, I'm gonna watch. And am I seeing compliance, compliance, compliance, compliance, compliance? If that's all I'm seeing, then I'm probably in one of those last two options.

Tammy 10:10

Right.

Scott 10:10

Okay. Or am I seeing compliance and and they're talking about it in a more positive way over time? When I have conversations with that person, are they asking inquisitive questions or are they telling me all the things that are wrong with it? Well, I'm just doing it because you told me to. I'm just like, to me, all of those are indicators of which bucket they're in.

Tammy 10:35

So, Scott, for me, when I hear you say that, then it's like, okay, as a leader, one of the things I know in this spot is we oftentimes get stuck in the emotion side of our brain. Okay. And when we're in such a worthless part of the brain. Yeah, for you, Mr. Logical, right? But there is this place where we kind of get stuck in the emotion side of that. And that's withdrawal. We're in the emotion side of it. Okay. And

Move From Feelings To Execution

Tammy 11:04

so if I'm like, hey, what do you think? And that person is just shrugging their shoulders and they're saying, Whatever, you know, you tell me and I'll take action, right? That is that compliance spot. That is that place where they're not fighting, right? That in that space, but it also means that they're not participating. So maybe part of it is getting them into the logic side of the brain at that point. And instead of saying, What do you feel about this? Right, and continuing to worry about the feelings. Okay, we start asking the how can we execute it thing. And in that spot, it's like, okay, so we're here, and we know that we got to figure out how to move forward, like what needs to happen in order to get this thing done? What could we do? And if they won't play in the It's the growth questions, sorry, if they won't play in the logic, yeah.

Karman 11:57

It's the testing phase, yeah.

Tammy 12:00

Right. And so if in this spot we're asking logical questions, what could we do? What would be good about that? What would be tough about that? What other options do we see? If we can like like try to be in that logic spot with them and they continue to not play, well, you just tell me, you just tell me, you just tell me. I think that is one of the things that really becomes very clear that they're stuck in this spot, right? For and and that means that as a leader, it's not acceptance, okay, it's defiant compliance.

Karman 12:41

Somebody recently called it false acceptance. And I I thought that was super interesting.

Tammy 12:47

Right. And they will want to in that spot when you push them, they want to go back and you know, like debate the decision. Okay. And there does come a time as a leader, it's like, hey, I I I continue to hear you and I understand that you don't like the decision. And the decision is has been made, and we've got to figure out how to get from here to there. So let's like continue to say, how could we? Let's look at how we can execute it. And you know what? If we execute it with excellence and it comes up and that you're right, that it really sucked, that will that's what will happen. It will show. Okay. In the meantime, what could we do to move this forward? And for me, that is one of the places where I think we can kind of test it out and it gives a leader something to do. Don't just accept that, yeah, whatever. Get them into that place where we're starting to ask questions about how do we and in that space, see how they turn. Do they move forward or do they stay in that spot? Scott, do you have other things you think we could do with that person in that moment?

Scott 13:53

I think the other, to me, the other element of that is if we just rewind ever so slightly, ideally, if you've built the impact map. So, again, a reminder one of the things I love to do in change is I build an impact map. Now, I I do it in a spreadsheet because that's easier, but I'm gonna put every single name in that spreadsheet that I believe is gonna be impacted. What is their role? How do I think

Using An Impact Map To Plan

Scott 14:23

they're gonna react? If you're doing an org redesign, I'm gonna say, here's their current leader, here's their new leader on the other side, here's the thing that they're gonna have to do differently. And then how do I think they're going to react? And what's my mitigation plan? I need to have conversation. I need to bribe them, I need to whatever, like whatever that is. In those spots, I should be going back to that list and looking at did they respond how I thought? If they're not, did I misread? Or are they playing? Is there a facade that I need to try and if if it's like, oh, they're going to be really concerned about this, but all of a sudden there's like and no, so like either I blatantly misread, or the person closest to that blatantly misread how they're gonna react to that, which I don't think is right, but I'm looking for one of those changes or deltas, and then what's my course of action that I need to do? Do I need to investigate deeper there?

Tammy 15:28

So, Scott, step me back just for a second. Yep. What's the reason for guessing about how they're going to react on that impact map?

Scott 15:37

I look at it and I look at it and say, hey, we're making this change, this process change. If I want a person closest to them, because we might not be ready to talk to them yet about it. I'm based on who knows that person, I'm gonna say, how do I think they're going to respond? Now, I then can say, Do I need to have pre-conversations with them as I start? So I'm doing because it's really I'm doing that ahead of ta-da, we're making this change. Because I can't go and talk to everybody about the change that might be coming and get that information. So it's it's and and I have to be in some level of relationship with these individuals or have someone on the team who can give us their best estimate of that before we go.

Tammy 16:29

So part of it is what I'm hearing you say, so that we can then proactively try to mitigate the issue.

Scott 16:35

Try and mitigate it. Yes.

Tammy 16:37

Okay. So I thank you, because I think that's an important piece. It's not like, hey, and I did they act the way I expected them to? It's no, no, no.

Scott 16:44

I'm looking at it and saying, here's the thing. Oh gosh, they normally work nine to five. Our new hours, you know, two days a week, I'm gonna need them to work 10 to 7. Okay, what's the oh I know they have two young kids, and what like, are they gonna have daycare? Do I need to give them more time to kind of arrange that? Is that right? It's being thoughtful and proactive about that. And then, like, oh, they're gonna freak out and they might quit. All right, am I gonna do something about that? Or am I gonna like say, I'm sad to see you go, and we are do need to move forward with extended hours because that's what our customers want, right? It's all of that effort. And to me, this is the number one thing people skip. They don't do that legwork because it's hard, it's busy work, it's I have to take time to think. You mean I have to list everyone? Yes, everyone. It's not that hard. It's a list.

Tammy 17:42

Well, the piece of that for me, then that I kind of like is yeah, I'm doing that proactively, but couldn't I still use that impact list to like where do I think these people are? What is it as I'm going through the change?

Scott 17:56

For me, that is back. That is the going back to that to say, oh, like they they we thought they would resist that. They've like said, yeah, I'm in. Wait a minute. Is it real? Right? Is that fake? Is that memorex? If you remember, you're right, is it real or is it memorex? You are reference, go YouTube search that.

Tammy 18:18

Yeah, I was gonna say, if you don't know that reference, you are uh younger than 45. But the piece about that, and and I actually like the so now let's check. Okay, so it is my job as a leader to bring people through this, okay. So now here's my list. Where are people? What are my hints? What are my clues? All right, and and then making sure that I am because I need to bring them through this, they need to go through this change curve in order to come to the end where they are productive and on board and not like carrying a bag of resentment with them at the end of this thing. And so I kind of like the impact piece in the proactive. I also like the impact list in the spot that I can use it, that my job is to be looking and saying what's next for each one of these people. Because in that space, yeah, the place that I think folks get stuck is in this withdrawal stage. And yeah, I think we oftentimes misunderstand that as acceptance. And we still have a job to do there, and you can look because if they're saying yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not acceptance. Okay. That is not acceptance. It is passive, aggressive withdrawal in that space. And it's our job to get them out of it, right? So I love these two tools in that space. Carmen, you teach this all the time. Is there a third tool or are these kind of like the two big ones?

Karman 19:53

I love these. And the thing I'm thinking about is maybe a little broader, yet in the sense of how do you make sure that you have a culture where it's okay to not be in false acceptance?

Tammy 20:11

Do you know what I mean? Like so as a leader, allowing someone to tell me what they really feel, even when they disagree with me.

Karman 20:19

Well put. That is what I was trying to say.

Tammy 20:21

Okay. So in

Make Dissent Safe Or Help Exits

Tammy 20:23

that space, just you know, because I actually, and you know, in our organization, we really accept people telling Scott and I that we're wrong. Okay.

Karman 20:34

You especially like it when people tell Scott he's wrong.

Tammy 20:37

That's my favorite one, yeah, right. That is by far my very favorite, is when we tell Scott that he is wrong. Of course, it doesn't happen very often, but that is still one of my very favorite things to do. But in that space, right, there comes a time, Carmen, that it's like, I get the fact that you think I'm wrong. Okay. And I still need you to come along with me. Okay. And so for me, it's it's I really do believe as a leader to let someone say, I see this differently, for us to listen to that for a while, to consider their point of view, because there could be something really valid in that. And I am going to at least have my eyes open and my ears wide in that spot and give something a hearing. And sometimes, regardless, even if part of what they're saying is correct, the organization very well may need to go in the direction that they said originally. And I'm gonna need this person to, while they disagree, to come along to say yes. And uh one of the things that for me in that spot is to have a really honest conversation and to say, I hear you. And I actually even understand your argument and your point of view, and the organization is headed in this direction, and I need you to come with. And if this is something that you just cannot, then we need to help you put together an exit strategy. Not because I don't like you, not because you aren't a good human being, not because you don't do good work, but because being aligned with this organization is something that we need in order for us to move forward. And I don't want you to continue to be in a spot where you feel like you're just, you know, like you're supposed to shut up and just put up. And if that's really what this is, if you can't get past it, it's okay. All right, but you probably should go someplace else where you don't have to have this barrier in front of you all the time. And that is a conversation that many people are unwilling to have. Like, don't get mad that they don't want to say yes and they don't want to line. Help them understand that we get it, and there's probably a place that's better for them than here. And when we actually have that conversation, sometimes people go, is this the hill I want to die on? Is this so important, right? That right, I shouldn't be in this organization. And there are times when it absolutely is. Okay. And if that's true, then we should help you exit gracefully, not with shame, but exit gracefully. If it is not, they're like, you know what? Maybe I can get over this. Okay. Maybe this isn't that big of a deal. And so for me, yeah, listen, don't get angry, don't get reactive, but then talk about the reality. The reality is in this particular case, uh, we are gonna go 10 sevens two times a week. And if this is something that you and your family can't manage, I get it. Okay. But if this is something you can manage, even though it's not your favorite thing, and you can do it and not continue to be mad about it two times a week, then let's make it work. We should allow them, right? Not get mad, not get angry, not shut it down. When you go underground, we're not dealing with reality. Don't let it get buried, bringing it to the forefront. Yeah.