Influence In The Middle

Feeling stuck in the middle of the org chart, doing solid work but still getting talked over? We dig into the real mechanics of influence at work and why the jump from manager to director can feel like hitting a wall. The rules change fast: you stop winning through sheer execution and start winning through credibility, stakeholder management, and managing up with clarity and intent. 

We get blunt about the biggest blockers we see when leaders say “they won’t listen to me.” First, your house has to be in order. If your team or department is not producing the outcomes the business expects, you don’t have leverage, no matter how smart your idea is. Then we move into alignment: your definition of strong performance does not matter as much as your boss’s definition, so we talk through how to ask for direct feedback, understand the criteria, and decide what to do if values or expectations don’t match. 

From there, we break down the practical skill set for building influence: do the homework, make a real business case, and communicate it in a way your audience can hear. That includes framing options, tradeoffs, and impact on organizational objectives, then tailoring your message to different stakeholders without turning it into “salesy” nonsense. If you’re trying to build executive presence, strengthen communication skills, and earn a true seat at the table, this is the roadmap. 

Transcript

Cold Open On What Changed

Karman 0:30

Good morning, Tammy and Scott. Good morning, Karman. How are you? Good.

Scott 0:37

How are you doing? The great Karminsky.

Karman 0:41

The great Karminsky. Wah, wah, wah, wah.

Tammy 0:47

Love that. We need a little turban, you know, Johnny Carson days. Not that anybody else knows that.

Karman 0:55

We can only talk about that as a Johnny Carson costume, not culturally.

Scott 1:01

Correct. That's correct. Now the politically correct police are going to flag our podcast with racial slurs in it. Nice. Thanks.

Tammy 1:09

No, it was Johnny Carson. I'm sorry. It is the Johnny Carson error.

Scott 1:14

I mean, that would be like saying all in the family is okay because you know he's gonna smack her to the moon, right? So, you know.

Tammy 1:23

Think about all the things we used to say and do.

Scott 1:26

Oh, that was the honeymooners, yeah.

Tammy 1:28

That's the honeymooners, but think about this for just a little bit. I mean, seriously, all the stuff that we could say and do that was considered funny that now is like you can't tread on that ground anymore. There's the words.

Scott 1:42

Well, you can, it's just it's just, you know, you know, do you watch Matt Reif or Jimmy Carr kind of comedy? Or, you know, is a do you watch something a little tamer? Yeah, because they still do they still do those edgy things.

Tammy 1:57

They do, but we don't do them in corporations anymore because we have word pools.

Scott 2:02

Well, they make enough money that they're a corporation.

Tammy 2:07

That part, I'm not talking about entertainment though, yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, so all right, Karman, what are we on?

Karman 2:15

Yeah, along those lines, thinking about, you know, like what worked for you before, is it still the right approach? I've been talking lately to a lot of leaders who have recently moved from being a team leader manager up into more of a director level. And one of the

The Jump From Manager To Director

Karman 2:42

challenges that I'm seeing for folks is that transition from being a really good manager of your people, managing down for lack of a better word, and as you move higher in the organization, needing to be better at managing up. How do I operate at this sort of higher level, less in the weeds, less of a day-to-day tactical leader, but tactical focused to a leader that can manage, you know, the people, the relationships of my peers, and be smart and competent to a CEO, for instance. Do you know what I'm saying?

Tammy 3:29

Like how do people make this transition? It's actually Karman, it's interesting because every single I'm just gonna talk about layers of the organization and make it simple, right? Every time you go from one layer to the next layer, okay, there is a new set of expectations and a new set of skills. And what got you here, the first job that you had, is not what's going to make you successful in that next step up. Okay. And this is what I would say it's a classic kind of we can see this across industries, we can see this across generations. We, I mean, this is not something that is like, oh, it's just started to happen. This has been here forever, right? I was really good at this, and now I have to get good at something else. And if we take it out of work, hey, I got married and I figured out how my husband and I could be really, really successful. Okay. And it was great. And then we decide to have children. Everything changes when you bring a child into that relationship. And what you have to get good at is completely different when you bring that child in, because husband and wife, that was great, but now there's new responsibilities. There's a kid, and what we did then is not going to now work with three of us. And my understanding, even though I don't have children, is that the same thing continues to happen when you have three children, five children. Oh, now the children leave, right? All of these are transitions where you have to figure out you had it figured out, it was working for you, and now a transition's happened, and you have to change in order to be successful, right? That's kind of how I'm seeing it.

Karman 5:12

Yeah, and I think we we talk a lot about that transition from doer to leader, and I think what we talk less about is that one level of leader to the next level of leader, yeah.

Tammy 5:27

That middle leadership. So team lead to mid, mid to executive, right? Those two spots are a little more murky, right?

Scott 5:38

But I heard Karman's question differently. Oh, okay. I I agree with everything you're saying. I I heard it more of regardless of where I am in the pecking order. How do I make it? How do I influence us?

Karman 5:52

Is that really the question? What sparked my question was more what Tammy and I said, you know, like transition. And I think at its core, it is what you're saying, Scott, is like this is a skill set.

Influence Starts With One Question

Karman 6:08

That's really nice.

Scott 6:09

That's really Midwest nice for you to say we're both right.

Karman 6:12

Yeah, isn't it? And listeners, if you haven't listened to last week's false alignment podcast, please go do go back to that.

Tammy 6:20

Yeah. You know, I will say that that is a skill set that becomes more and more and more important. Okay. It is also the skill set that, to be honest with you, irritates the person that is in middle management to upper mid management if they don't have that skill set. They start saying, I should have influence. And when they don't have influence, they get really like should have a seat at the table. They should all listen to me. Yeah. How do I get people to listen to me? So you're right. That is one of the skill sets.

Scott 6:52

Why should they listen to you? I mean, that if you're not asking yourself that question right now, the other questions don't matter.

Tammy 7:03

Scott, I love that because that I mean, seriously, that when people come to me and they're like, and they won't do what I want. And I'm thinking, you're acting like a victim instead of the person that literally says, I need to find a way to build influence.

Scott 7:18

So you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, okay, get off your throne and go do something.

Tammy 7:24

Okay, let's stick on that for a little bit.

Scott 7:27

Now now that we've talked like 17 different podcast topics, what are we actually going to talk about in this episode?

Tammy 7:32

Or get out of the weeds, yes and do something. So let's let's play with that because, in in all honesty, you have been promoted, you're you have a department, a division that you're working with, okay, and you feel like no one listens to you. Okay. Let's start here. What are people doing that keeps others from paying attention to their words, paying attention to their perspectives? Because in the end, we probably have to change. Others are not going to change and just you know magically like listen to us, right? So, what are the typical things that keep people from saying that person has something to say that's worth listening to,

Competence Before You Expect A Voice

Tammy 8:21

right? This is a problem that I think a lot of folks have and they get really frustrated about in that space. So if you were to answer that question, Scott, what's the number one thing that people are doing that gets in the way of them having influence?

Scott 8:37

I actually think it's themselves. I think they specifically, what are they? Oh, specifically, it's they haven't done their homework. And I'm I'm just gonna say them and then I'll kind of talk through them here. They haven't done their homework, they don't approach the conversation right, and they don't sell it.

Tammy 8:53

Oh, there's something to me that's before that.

Scott 8:55

That's fine. You could be wrong.

Tammy 8:57

Okay, no, I agree with what you're saying, but here's the deal: if you are not good at what you're doing, if you're not gonna be able to do that.

Scott 9:02

Oh, yeah, you have to be performed for sure.

Tammy 9:05

Okay, so the number one thing that I see is people who are complaining, they won't listen to me, they won't listen to me, they won't listen to me, but their house is not in order. If your house isn't in order, if you are not running your department well, if you're not getting the outcomes that are needed and necessary for the responsibilities that you've already been given, no one's gonna listen to you. Yeah, okay. So, first of all, before you think you're gonna have influence, get good at what it is that they've hired you to do. Okay. That in the end, why would I listen to you when I don't see you as being good?

Scott 9:39

And not your definition of good, their definition of good.

Tammy 9:44

Yes.

Scott 9:45

Yes, because I because that to me is like, well, I'm doing everything I'm quote supposed to be doing based on your perspective, which maybe is right, maybe is best practice, maybe is industry standard. But if it's not what your boss wants, or it's not what the leadership wants, it really doesn't matter.

Tammy 10:01

I was talking to someone yesterday, I gave a keynote yesterday, and afterwards a person came up to me and you know, wanted to chat. And when she said is she said, like, I have a boss, and this is what's happening. And she talked about a boss who was in many ways, kind of very pointedly saying, Hey, I don't like you. I don't like your outcomes, I don't like what's happening here. And she's like, you know, he's picking on me. And I said, Okay. I said, so the piece about that is going and saying, Hey, I can tell that you are not happy with my performance, right? This and this and this. Here's some examples of feedback that you're giving me. Help me understand what it is that you want me to do differently and help me understand why. Because I don't want to have this relationship with you. I want to have a relationship where you think I'm a superstar. What do I need to do differently so that you see me as a superstar? And she cocked her head and she said, I think I'm already doing that. And I said, I'm sure you do. However, have you asked your boss that question? What is it that I need to do in order to please you? Which is really that you know it what that is. And she was like, No. And I said, So you really don't know. You are doing what you think is a superstar, but does he think that that is superstar behavior? And ultimately, whether we like it or not, they're your boss. What is it that they want from you? Give them that, unless, of course, it's immoral and ethical, doesn't fit with your values, whatever, then you have a choice to leave. If it's inside of those types of things, it's like, oh, I need to sit in their shoes and I need to understand that's what they are valuing, like they they evaluate me on that stuff, and so you have to recognize this is the rules of the game. This is how the criteria that they're using, okay.

Scott 12:03

And if that's the criteria that you're using, then you need to meet that criteria, and it's actually no different than the last podcast. If you don't want to, or you don't, hey, I just I don't think that's the right direct, then then that's an alignment issue, and you have a decision to make.

unknown 12:20

Sure.

Tammy 12:20

And that's exactly what I told this gal. I said, you live in the Chicagoland area, there are millions of jobs, millions of jobs for your job title. Okay, it's not like you're in you know rural Iowa or southern Illinois,

Build A Business Case Then Sell It

Tammy 12:35

where you know there's so few jobs. When you're in a metropolitan area like that, there are millions of jobs. And if you're good at what you do, find the company that works for you, right? But in this particular case, no one is gonna listen unless you're competent. Period. Okay I agree with that. Get competent, okay. Thank you. Because you started by telling me I could be wrong. Uh-huh.

Scott 13:01

You could be wrong. You just happen to be right this time.

Tammy 13:04

I wasn't, yes. Okay. So competence.

Scott 13:08

And there's some kind of like blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again.

Tammy 13:12

Oh, come closer.

Scott 13:13

Let me and then to me, the the homework part is how have you looked at, hey, I want to go this direction or I want, I have this, this we should take a left turn up here at Albuquerque or whatever that is. And and if you haven't done your homework for why and the impact to the organization to influence others and how it aligns to the objectives of the organization, again, why would anyone listen? I can't to me, it's I I always think about it, hey, if I can accomplish what I'm accomplishing and I can show someone how it's going to help them accomplish what they're going to accomplish. I seldom see people say no to that unless I haven't made the case. That is the last part. Sell it. If I can't sell it, and I don't mean sell it like the, you know, the the slimy stereotype used car sales. I'm saying, like, hey, here's here's the three reasons that I think this. This is my what do you think, right? There has to be some some inquisitiveness there in that selling to get people on board. And usually what I see when people can't is they're so busy telling they're not listening.

Karman 14:27

Well, or they start with number three. There's somebody telling it that they haven't built the groundwork. Yes.

Tammy 14:33

Do you know? So that competence is the first piece. Scott, the second, right? Just to kind of like what let's put this in a little capsule, this spot. It's like, hey, it's not an opinion. You're making the business case, right? So so many people come to the table and there's like, well, I think we should. Hey, that's an opinion, right? You can have an opinion, but now before you actually go like try to push it, go back, make the case. Okay. What are we trying to accomplish? Okay. What options are you looking at? So I had an opinion, but I'm going to look at my opinion plus maybe other people's opinions, and maybe two or three others, and I'm going to analyze them all. Then I'm going to go, okay, if I this is what we're trying to accomplish. Actually, this solution gets us there with the least downside. So I've actually thought it through. I don't just have an opinion. I've gone back, I've done a little bit of homework. Now, that does not mean weeks and months of homework. Sometimes that's an evening, right? Where I've actually put together and my thinking and my case. And if we go back to the think book and go through road, it is that process of going through road and saying, hey, what's happening today? What is the outcome that I'm looking for? What are my options? Analyzing those options. This is the one that gives me the biggest bang for the buck with the least amount of downside. Now I have my case that I've thought through. Too many people come to the table. They haven't thought it through. They just have an opinion, right? So be competent. Now you have the right to play. Now, when you play, what is the idea? Have you tested it? Okay. Have you gone through that thinking? Have you talked to other people about it? Have you made sure that it is a robust solution that actually makes sense? Now that it makes sense, how do you go about sharing that in a way that other people can hear and say yes to you? Right. And in the end, if you don't do those three things, and by the way, there's nothing wrong with selling an idea. Who are you selling it to? If it's a Scott Bergmeyer, okay, you're going to probably sell it a little differently than to Karman. If you sell it to Karman, it's probably a little different than how you sell to me. Who are you selling it to? And are you actually talking their language? Right? Are you meeting them where they're at, right? In that space. So there is a whole thing about how you go about it. But it's like, hey, be good. Two, put a case together. It's thought out, it's smart, it's not just an opinion. And then three, how do you go about that process of selling an idea? And if you don't have those three things, no one's gonna listen to you. And you're gonna whine, and then you're gonna act like a victim. And the more you whine and the more you act like a victim, the more I'm not gonna listen to you.

Scott 17:26

Yeah. I mean, so really it mean here's the thing. To me, the core message here is you can start to do these things or you can quit. Okay. You can quit your job or you can quit being a little bitch. Either way will work.

Tammy 17:41

Just so you know, there was a little bit of gender hating in that particular phrase. And um, I may have to call you on that in this.

Scott 17:49

Oh, okay. Yeah,

Quit Complaining Or Quit The Job

Scott 17:49

yeah. I was just I was just modeling what I saw at the beginning of this podcast.

Tammy 17:54

Oh, I guess I need to go to human resources right now so that I can whine and call you on your crap, right?

Scott 18:03

Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. That was a we will we will launch we will absolutely launch a formal investigation for sure.

Tammy 18:10

For sure, for sure. And Karman, right? You're gonna be that person that does the investigation, right?

Scott 18:17

Yeah, that's that's Karman's favorite thing. We could ask Kelsey to do it. She's she's really loving her HR experience right now.

Tammy 18:25

And and Scott, I don't know if you remember, but Karman started with us by doing an investigation for one of our organizations. That was her first assignment. And I know she loved that. Didn't you love that one? It was it was good. I really liked it.

Karman 18:42

Yes false alignment right there, folks. Oh no, it it it pushed a bunch of my buttons, knowing what's you know, knowing the inside scoop, totally a Karman thing, you know, asking questions, being curious, gathering facts, totally push my buttons in a good way. I mean, the whole thing was unfortunate, but juicy.

Tammy 19:10

I love that it is true that investigations are juicy. So, Karman, I I don't know that we actually answered your original question, right, about that middle, but one of the skill sets to go back to it, one of the skill sets is if you truly want to be successful, you're gonna have to master this methodology of being prepared and doing the right thing so that people listen to you, building influence. If they don't, right, in that space, you will flounder because in the middle of the organization, right, you have to have that communication skill set to win. And that communication skill set also requires you to be able to talk to your peers across, to gather information for that analysis in the middle of it and build relationships there. And without those two things, you

Peers, Relationships, And Moving Up

Tammy 20:05

will not succeed in that spot. You will be diminished. Now you might be allowed to sit in that spot, but you won't go much further because you need to have that ability to work with your peers across and have relationships and ask questions as well as influence so that you can continue to make a difference. So I actually love that question, and there's one piece of that answer to your original question.