Knowing When To Move On

One word can be the spark that ends a chapter. Karman shares the moment she realized she had outgrown her first job after college, when a boss challenged her writing in a way that revealed something bigger than a single edit: the learning had stopped. From there, we dig into the real-life signals that tell you it’s time to move on from a job, a relationship, a project, or any situation where you’re doing all the work just to stay stuck. 

Scott brings a career advancement story that hits home for anyone who has ever felt capped: he’s offered a promotion that comes in under his minimum salary requirements and shuts down flexibility and scope he believes would make the work better. We talk about how to set decision criteria ahead of time, why turning down a “good” opportunity can be the most self-respecting move, and how golden handcuffs like pensions and buyouts can keep talented people in place long after growth is gone. 

Tammy adds the perspective many of us recognize but don’t like to admit: staying until the decision is forced. That opens up the coaching questions that cut through the noise, including “Is the juice worth the squeeze?” and “Are you running toward something or running away from something?” We also unpack the frog-in-slowly-heating-water problem, where small issues compound until you can’t see how heavy things got. If you’re looking for practical career change advice, leadership mindset, and a more intentional way to choose your next step, this conversation gives you language you can use today. 

If it resonates, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s on the fence. What’s the clearest sign you’ve ignored that it was time to move on?

Transcript

Soda Nostalgia And Morning Banter

Scott 0:00

Good morning, Scott and Tammy.

Tammy 0:03

Good morning, Karman.

Scott 0:06

Morning, Karman. Trains are coming. That was Scott blowing into a Mountain Dew bottle. A Mexican Sprite bottle. That is my I allow myself one Mexican Sprite a day. Oh wow. Yeah, one soda a day. Full sugar? It it is all only sugar. So none of that artificial sweetener shit and no corn syrup crap. Yeah. It's it's lovely.

Tammy 0:37

Yeah, that's like when you can find it, like the real, like full sugar on Pepsi. It's like the stuff that we grew up with. Yeah.

Scott 0:44

Well, and so what's funny is where we get it, they don't sell it at the grocery store, but you can get it at Lowe's. So you can buy a 24-pack of bottles of Mexican Coke and Mexican Sprite at Lowe's, not at the grocery store, though.

Tammy 1:01

Well, that is so interesting. And I it's kind of nostalgic. I mean, that's the stuff we grew up with. Yeah. And it tastes like when I was a kid. I mean, it's totally different. It's great.

unknown 1:13

Yeah.

Karman 1:13

My my dad would have a Pepsi at night out of the bottle like that. And every, you know, every kid would come by and want one sip. So basically, my dad got to drink the backwash at that point.

Tammy 1:27

Yeah. How many kids came by?

Karman 1:30

I once did a little like for a a class, a photo class, I did a photo story of that exact thing. And I think I had five kids, you know, who walked by and each had a a sip.

Tammy 1:46

Oh, that's actually a fun story, Karen. Really? I mean, that's great. And my family was a Pepsi drinking family too. So there's a little like there's this little warm little spot inside of you. You hear that story. Well, I do want to talk about stories today.

Karman 2:00

Oh, oh. Is it about a lovely lady? You get to decide. Okay.

Tammy 2:06

Do you think anybody knows that, Scott?

Scott 2:12

I expected Karman to. It's the Brady bunch. Yeah. Here's a story of a lovely lady.

Tammy 2:20

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very lovely girls.

Scott 2:24

Yep. All of them

The Question: Knowing When To Leave

Scott 2:27

had hair gold.

unknown 2:29

Yeah.

Scott 2:30

The youngest.

Tammy 2:30

The youngest one in curls. Absolutely.

Karman 2:34

Yeah, I'm really not on my game this morning to have missed that it's early.

Tammy 2:39

It's right. And it's been a very, very, very long month.

unknown 2:43

Yeah.

Tammy 2:43

Yeah.

Karman 2:44

So the story that I'm looking for this morning is tell us about a time that you realized it was time to move on from a relationship, from a job, from sugared pop to unsugared pop, or vice versa. Like, so my first job out of college, I had been there about two years. And one day my boss was reviewing something that I had written, and he questioned my use of the word pervasive. And I was like, okay, well, you know, maybe this is not quite the right word. He said, I didn't know what this word meant. Like, did you mean persuasive? And I was like, well, no, but you know, I'll go look for a different word. Okay. And so I went back to my office

A Word Choice That Changed Careers

Karman 3:34

and I sat down and I realized, like, no, like pervasive is the exact perfect word for what I am trying to describe here. And that was the moment when I knew that I had learned as much as I could from this particular boss. And it was time for me to start looking for a new job.

Tammy 3:53

And when he confuses those two words, that tells you he was not really reading what you had, because in context. Right. It's yeah. That's the other piece of it. I get the fact that I could get upset about a word, but more importantly, like he didn't get it. Right.

Karman 4:12

And he said he even said he looked it up and he still didn't quite get it. And now, like in retrospect, I kind of wonder if he was playing extra dumb. Like he just thought that maybe our readers wouldn't know that word. Anyway, one of the job interviews I went to in that process, the hiring manager used the word pervasive in the interview. And I was like, Yeah, this is, you know, it's a sign. It's a sign. It was a sign. I did not end up working for him, but he referred me to somebody else, the person who had left the job I was interviewing for, and she hired me at her new job, which is, I mean, all the long how things work out. But but that's how I decided it was time to move on. And so my question for you guys today is tell us a story about a time you decided to move on. And how how did you get there? What made you decide that?

Tammy 5:16

I'm actually smiling about this, and smiling because this is one of the things I'm not very good at. And what I mean by that is I have a tendency to hold on until like I get kicked in the face and have to go versus making the choice early not be as painful. Um, so I am I'm known for you know staying way past the time period that I should have paying the price for that, right? So I'm gonna have to think about

Why We Stay Too Long

Tammy 5:46

is there any story when I actually left at a reasonable time versus getting my ass kicked? But Scott, do you have a story while I'm trying to think?

Scott 5:57

Yeah, I'm trying to. There's a couple that I'm there's several that I'm thinking about, and some of them I probably can't share on the podcast.

Tammy 6:07

I also have that problem.

Scott 6:09

Yeah, I I may or may not have signed documents that said I would not talk about this or share this information. So it's also like our shortest podcast ever. The one I'm actually thinking

Turning Down A Promotion On Principle

Scott 6:27

about is you know, I worked, I worked for a company for a while, and I had a couple instances of places where it like if I'm super fair, like there were things that I did when I was not as mature and self-aware as I as I would like to think I am now that did not help me in my career. Now, I would also say, yeah, after time I got to a place where, yeah, I had mended, I would say, all of those bridges I had crumbled or shattered or exploded or nuclear bombed or the all of the above. And I realized that there was a moment where I had the opportunity for promotion. And whenever I and I've done this for years, that whenever I would interview somewhere, whether it was internal or external, I would, after the interview, I would go home and I'd make some notes about, you know, what, you know, what do I need to reflect on? Of course, you'd send the thank you, no, et cetera. But then I would write down, like, okay, if they're gonna offer me the job, these would be my minimums. I would want this in salary, or I'd want these, you know, kind of conditions and reasonable. Like, and I would look at that and I would say, if I meet these, I will take the job. Then I'm not making an emotional decision in the moment. I'm making a, okay. And so I had listed I would like this in a salary. I would like to continue doing some of the board and community work that I was doing. And I wanted to combine the job I was currently in with this other job because I believed that these departments should should go together. And so I did, I got the job offer, and it was probably 20% below the salary line. And so I went and I'm like, you know, hey, and in my mind, if I got two of the three of those, I was okay. That was in my mind. And so I went and I had the conversation, and basically what I was told was, well, you just got a raise, so you really don't get a full increase because you know you got the raise. And even though I said, you know, that raise is for past performance, this is a promotion that does that logically doesn't make sense to me. And so yeah, they upped that a little bit, but then what they said was, no, like you're gonna have to be here to do this job, and combining these jobs would just not be possible. No one is capable of doing that, was is what I was told.

Karman 9:04

And of course, in my head, challenge, challenge issues.

Scott 9:08

If you're not capable of doing that, I am. And I even said, Hey, I would be willing. Like, let's have me try it for three months or six months. And if truly I cannot do it, then I will go in the new job and I will say, Yep, you were right. And they looked at me and said, No. And I said, Okay, I don't want the promotion then. And I shall shop to them. And about six months later, I left because I realized I'm capped. I don't want to move geographically, and they don't see what I'm capable of. And I can do lots of other things. And I just realized, yeah. And it's interesting because I I have had lunch with that, with that leader a couple times after I'd left, and he has said we should have done it. Because probably if they would have done it, I don't know that I would have left. And you wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't be here more than likely, yeah. So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Karman 10:04

That is Scott's Independence Day story. It is, yeah.

Tammy 10:10

Honestly, for all of us, it was an important one because foundationally, that organization that Scott worked for is a big, massive organization, super, super successful. There's a lot of reasons to stay, and people do stay in that organization because they encourage you to stay. Yeah, right. Three years ago, I could have had a buyout. Yep.

Scott 10:34

And pretty decent one, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I still have my pension,

Golden Handcuffs And Forced Exits

Scott 10:40

it's just not as big as it would have been if I had stayed.

Tammy 10:43

I was gonna say you stay that many years, and it's a little bit bigger in that particular space, right? So that's one of the ways that you know many companies keep you is they put you in these golden handcuffs, and it's like I can't get that anywhere else, so I better stay. And then this quo, and you know, they've capped you and you cap yourself, and in the all that stuff, it's kind of interesting that you kind of get you never reach your potential, right? Because there's no real reason to continue to push. Yeah, you know, this whole time that Karman, you told your story, and and Scott told his story, and I'm like, really, you know, what are the times that I left, right? And I I have very few times that I actually left. I usually am the one who stays. And and I have paid a tremendous price for staying, right? And that is it's interesting. So I'm not sure I can really answer your question. In my professional career, I've only left twice, ever. Every other time, my hand has been forced. And that means I get fired, or you know, the organization that I'm working for because I did so many startups, fails, you know, those types of things, right?

Karman 12:02

So your sign it was time to move on is you stopped getting paid and you said, okay, I can take a hint.

Tammy 12:09

Yes, that's huge, and I know that's really terrible, but I think that's actually accurate. And and there is this thing inside of me, and it's by the way, the wrong message. There's this thing that says, I can make it work. You know, it's my job to make it work. Instead of saying, is this, is it worth it to make it work? Right? Are there things that, you know, I'm working so hard here when the message is just take that energy and put it someplace else, and you're gonna have a better experience. And I have never really been very good at leaving. And so most of the time it's been forced on me. I think there's something important there. It is this thing, honestly, Karman, that you were like, I'm not learning anymore. Why should I stay? Right. There's your lovely learning lesson that you saw and you said, I need to. And Scott, your that learning lesson is I know I can do more, and they're not letting me. Okay. Those realizations compared to mine. I can do it, I can turn it around, I can make it happen. How interesting that I couldn't, and how interesting that I waited until somebody else made that decision for me, instead of like having the foresight to say, this is not the best place for me, and I have other options. I always had other options. I never had a problem going on to the next startup. I never had the problem with starting the next business myself, right? Holding on too long. I've held on too long to lots of things, and it's cost me.

Karman 13:53

What do you guys tell people when you coach with them? If they're, you know, I'm trying to decide if it's time to cut my losses about a job or about something else, project, objective, like it doesn't have to be huge.

Tammy 14:09

This week I was in a training program and I was actually observing, quote unquote, if Tammy can ever go any place and observe. And and and in this answer to that, listeners, is no. No,

Coaching Tests: Juice Worth Squeeze

Tammy 14:23

I have a major problem. It's another another place where I have growth in that space. And the the facilitator asked me to be in the hot seat, and they wanted to walk through the road model that's in think, and they wanted to use a real situation where they could go through it and ask questions and go, but they need to be outside of them. So they put me in the hot seat, made me come up with the situation. And I have to tell you, first of all, these people were brilliant. Okay. So that's the spark. Their questions were dead on. And one of the questions that they asked was, is the juice worth the squeeze? You've been dealing with this for three months. Is the juice worth the squeeze? And I literally, I'm up front. I got like 15 participants and I'm like squirming. I'm like, I don't want to really answer that question. Because again, I was trying to make something when the message, like the message is so clear. Okay. This person is already broken up with you. You really need to like see it. Okay. And you're trying to make it work. And they were brilliant in asking me that question. And so, you know, I'm not telling you that that's the coaching question I ask because it's usually not. It is, however, the coaching question that was perfect in the moment for me, because that was the piece. Like you are working really hard. Are you gonna get the return on investment for that? Okay. Is the juice worth the squeeze? I think that's a great question to ask someone if you're like me, right? Like, think about that. Who's doing the work?

Scott 15:59

And it's almost, I mean, Karman, when you asked that question, I almost thought of it as it's almost decision criteria for when when do you say, like, stick a fork in it? It's done. Now, whether that is a job, a project, a relationship, like I generally don't find it's the big things in general. Hey, there's ethical things where people, you know, the like the executives are, you know, sleazy and like those kinds of things. Typically, it's like my experience, people are generally like, hey, either I'm out or I want in because I'm that kind of person and I want to be like, I get it, okay. And so to me, I I think we just set those examples aside. Then it's like, okay, is it is it causing you harm or grief that you can't manage? Is it keeping you up at night? Is it holding you back from achieving the goals you want to achieve in you know, in your life? And you start to think about there are some of these that, hey, I, you know, I want to be a CEO someday, I want to be uh, you know, a manager someday. And if that path isn't there, you know, my advice to people is always like, hey, you at least need to look at it and say, why do I want that?

Tammy 17:24

Yeah.

Scott 17:25

So if you say, hey, I want to be a leader, I want to be a vice president of CEO, like, okay, why do you want that?

Tammy 17:30

Because if that's an ego thing, bad decision.

Scott 17:33

Bad decision, right? If it's uh, hey, that's I think that's just what I'm supposed to do, right? That's what you know, versus saying, no, I want that because I want to make a difference or I think I can grow like okay. And then are you running towards something or are you running away from something?

Tammy 17:49

I love that. And that's that question, Scott. I know you use that a lot with folks, right? It's also when we're interviewing folks, we're looking for that because if they're running away from something, that is usually means that they're not choosing us, they're gonna choose anything. Okay. They haven't like clearly stated in their mind, they haven't figured out what it is that they want. So therefore, they're not necessarily going to choose us and know that we're the right answer. I think the other piece of this is like when it's a big thing that it happens, right? Then that's like a clear sign. Okay, get it. But a lot of times it's kind of like the old the wives' tale about the frog. You put it in a pot of cold water, turn up the heat slowly, the frog never jumps out. Okay. When these small things come in and it just gets a

The Slow Boil And Taking Stock

Tammy 18:48

little bit worse and a little bit worse and a little bit worse. Many of us, me, I'm talking about me. I don't mean yeah, I I don't always like it, doesn't seem big enough for me to make a fuss over it. Okay. The problem is, is I haven't looked at the compound interest. Okay. I'm just looking at that moment instead of recognizing that you know what, that moment is on top of another moment, which is on top of another moment. And I do think that that's where we just are not recognizing like what's happening in our life. We're doing other stuff, we're going on doing other those things, and we haven't taken a beat to contemplate that, right? And in that, in that space, I think that's where many people get stuck, or at least that's where I got stuck. It was like, well, you know, I can handle this. Oh, I can I can handle that. Well, that's not that bad, right? And then you're looking at the sunny side of stuff and you're paying attention to the stuff that is working, but you've forgotten to take a beat and simply say, what's not working? Historically, what's not been working? Let's add it up. And so while it's good that you're moving forward and you're not holding grudges and all that kind of stuff, there does come a time when you need to sit down and take stock. And I'm not sure that I ever really sat down and took stock. And sometimes when I left these things, right, you look back and you're like, how in the heck? I was carrying so much not good, bad pooky weight. What in the world was I thinking? I didn't see so much of it until after I had left, and then I took stock. And then you're like, wow, it's really good that I'm here. Okay. It's really good that I got kicked in the ass and sent to the curb. And it's time for me to like go on to that next thing. So that's the other thing. If you are like me and you actually get it's not your choice, and you get kicked to the curb. Sometimes there's a huge, big old gift in that. So that old joke, that little kid says, you know, oh, oh, there's a lot of crap here. There must be a pony somewhere, right? I mean, you know, that really is like in my life, there was a whole bunch of crap, a whole bunch of times in my life, but there was a pony. Okay. It just wasn't what I was expecting. It was the kick to the curb that ended up being the pony that took me to the next thing. So yeah, maybe we should think about it earlier. And if you waited too late, there might be a gift in there. It's time for you to go look for it.

Scott 21:40

I think at the end of the day, I believe it's are you taking time to think? Not about the work you need to accomplish. It's coming back and saying, what are the goals that I need to accomplish for the organization? What are the goals I need to accomplish for me? Me and my life, me and my life, and me and my family, and what does that mean? To me, is this allowing you to be on that path may or may not be the

Intentional Choices And Next Steps

Scott 22:10

speed you want to go? That I think is one of the one of the gaps. Oh, I should be at by the time I'm this age, I should be here. Well, maybe, maybe not. And just because you move to another organization doesn't mean that will speed it up. Sometimes it might speed it up and you may crash and burn because you went too fast too early. So to me, are you taking are you taking time to think and reflect and be reasonable about what is your expectation and comparing that to say, yeah, if I'm gonna make that move over there, or if I'm gonna say, hey, I'm out, are you doing it on purpose or are you doing it because it's convenient?

Tammy 22:52

The word, Scott, when you're talking about that for me is intentionality.

Scott 22:55

Yeah, love it.

Tammy 22:57

Okay. Is the wind blowing you, or are you taking stock every once in a while that says, Where am I? What do I want? What's working? What's not working? What do I have to do differently? Right. And in that space and being intentional. And I think many of us, and it was me early in my career. I went wherever I got blown, right? And those were opportunities, those doors opened. I walked through those doors, but I wasn't making intentional decisions. It was convenient, it was easy. In that spot, I think oftentimes that is what many of us do in life. Maybe one of the big learning lessons is choose, don't get pushed, right? Or pulled. Because sometimes it's like, come here, come here. I know I left a job and it was like, come here, come here. And it was like I got pulled into it. I've got pushed into it, but was I making choices for me? A lot of times I wasn't.