The Unspoken Rules Of Work

You can do great work and still get taken out by a rule nobody wrote down. We start with some light banter, then get real about the unspoken workplace norms that quietly shape careers: how you talk about your boss, how you push back, and how quickly “truth” can turn into a reputation problem.

Tammy shares a painful early-career story where she trashed her manager to the company president and learned a blunt lesson about power dynamics. From there, we dig into organizational maturity, managing up, and why taking responsibility matters more than having the best argument. We also talk about the hidden culture builders leaders rarely name out loud: second chances, forgiveness, and the trust equation. If people cannot recover from mistakes without being punished forever, trust never sticks and teams turn toxic fast.

Scott tells a story from his quality director days when he defied a high-level executive, stayed calm, and still triggered a decade of political collateral. We break down what he said, why it landed the way it did, and how to communicate truth with the right level of formality and framing so your message gets heard without torching your future. Along the way we reframe “organizational politics” as relationship, translation, and finding win-win outcomes without losing your integrity.

If you care about leadership, workplace communication skills, accountability, and building trust at work, this one will hit home. Subscribe, share with a coworker.

Transcript

Cardigans, Mr. Rogers, And Warm-Up

Karman 0:00

Good morning, Tammy and Scott. Good morning, Karman.

Speaker 2 0:05

What up, Karman?

Karman 0:09

The sun! The sun is out. That's nice. It's a beautiful day. It is a beautiful day.

Tammy 0:17

We're gonna take it. Beautiful day in the neighborhood.

Karman 0:21

A beautiful day in the Who's gonna wear the cardigan?

Tammy 0:24

Won't you be my could you be my neighbor?

Karman 0:30

I I feel like I should be able to pull out some really great Mr. Rogers lesson right now and relate it to work. And man, I'm not I'm not thinking that fast.

Tammy 0:41

That's my job because I'm a Rogers. Oh, that's right. So just leave it for later. Something will come up. Something will Tammy Rogers, Mr. Rogers neighborhood. We'll just make it Mrs. Rogers neighborhood today.

Karman 0:56

Again, for our YouTube channel.

Tammy 1:00

Scott's putting on his cardigan. Just to make everybody right. There you go.

Scott 1:06

Hello, neighbors.

Tammy 1:10

Changed his shoes, put on his cartigan, right? And he's ready to be sweet and kind, which is not gonna happen because it's Mr. Bergmeyer, not Mr. Rogers.

Scott 1:21

I don't know. The Mr. Rogers I see on TikTok is is different than the Mr. Rogers I've seen.

Tammy 1:29

Tiki talkie?

Scott 1:30

Yeah, Mr. Rogers neighborhood.

Tammy 1:32

It's a beautiful day.

Speaker 2 1:33

I'm a neighborhood.

Tammy 1:40

I think it's someone pretending to be Mr. Rogers.

Scott 1:44

Oh, it may be AI. It may be because he also then swears.

Tammy 1:49

Mr. Rogers would not swear. He was a very sweet, kind man, and his documentary is really interesting, actually. Yeah, it's actually a really um lovely. I think he actually was a really cool human being. I think he truly was this person. Yeah, sneak.

Karman 2:07

Last week we talked about the four, maybe five like sort of key headspace skill sets that you need to be successful in a job, you know, showing up, etc. And sometimes people just need that like to be told. Back to the four T's, you know, like did somebody really tell you like your job is to show up on time?

The Unspoken Rules We Learn Late

Karman 2:37

Did somebody tell you your job is to not be a jerk at work, to be easy to work with? I'm interested today in some of the workplace rules that are more unspoken. And specifically, Tammy and Scott, what's an unspoken rule that you learned maybe the hard way? Tell us a story.

Tammy 3:04

Oh I was 27 and I was working at a place called Excellence in Training Corporation, and my boss and I were not getting along. Okay. In in all honesty, I just I thought he was an idiot. Okay. And I the things he was asking me to do and kind of the way that he was leading me, I just didn't have much time for him. And

Tammy’s Hard Lesson About Bosses

Tammy 3:34

I was working uh late one night, and the president of the organization, uh, his name is Frank Russell at the time. Frank owned the place, and Frank called me into his office. He asked me, like, how's work going? And you know, you do the, yeah, everything's fine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he said to me, I understand that you and Paul, Paul was my boss, said, I understand that you and Paul are not getting along. And I said, took a beat, right? Because I was like, Do I say it? Do I not say it? What do I do in this spot? And I thought, well, he just asked me, and he obviously knows, so I'm just gonna tell him. So I took that moment to actually trash my boss. And I went in, it was like, and this is what's wrong with Paul, and this is what's wrong with Paul, and this, and I mean I had a list, and I actually don't remember that list now, but I know that I went on and on and on. It wasn't like a one-minute diatribe, it was like probably a 10-minute. And here's the CEO of the company on the other side of his desk encouraging me, nodding his head, making eye contact. And you know, the more he's like encouraging me, the more that I just kept talking and I just talked. And I finally ran out of gas because I will tell you, he never interrupted me. I know that part of it. And I ran out of gas and I got done telling him everything that was wrong with my boss. And uh, there was this big pause, and then Frank said, So if you had if I have to choose between you and Paul, like, who do you think I'm gonna choose? And in my 27-year-old righteousness, I was like, Well, me, I just told you everything that was wrong with him. Frank took a beat and he was like, Tammy, it's not how the world works. And then he gave me about a three-minute little tidbit of wisdom that basically sat me down and said, Hey, if I have to choose between an employee and a boss, I'm gonna choose a boss. And the reason I'm gonna choose a boss is unless the boss is actually doing something illegal and moral, whatever that is, they have more experience and they are usually the people that I've asked them to do certain things, and they're following what I have asked them to do. And when I have an employee who's not following that person, what it means is that you're not doing what I want you to do. And so, in the moment when you're looking at this, is please understand, bosses win. And I remember at that moment just like freaking out because I just realized what I had done. I had just trashed my boss in front of his boss and my bosses, he was my boss's boss. I just trashed him. Okay. I took no responsibility for myself. It was I was perfect, they were not perfect, and he just told me the reality is that if I don't do something in this moment, I'm gonna lose. I mean, I knew in that nanosecond that I was screwed and that I truly, truly had backed myself into a corner, and there was very little way for me to come out of this. And I was like, okay. And he's like, Well, why don't you go home and think about it? Oh, those are bad, bad, bad, bad words to tell an employee. Why don't you go home and think about it? That is a sign that you are in big shit. And I went home and I thought about it, and I came up with a solution. But here's the deal that was such an amazing learning lesson for me. Because one, I didn't know that you don't do that. I mean, I kind of had this little thing in my head that said, should I be talking about my boss like that? But notice that I immediately went and did it, right? But the second thing is that he very, very, very clearly articulated to me what the expectation was. And I actually didn't recognize that expectation. It had never occurred to me that bosses went at 27 that that I didn't know that. And it was such a great lesson in that moment that he that he gave me. It was a gift, right? It's a huge, huge gift. And I will tell you, I found a way to turn it around and I worked for Paul and Frank for five years after that. And I will tell you that Paul was the best boss I ever had. At 27, when I first started working for him, I was so organizationally immature. It wasn't even 27. It was just I didn't understand the way of organizations at that point. I didn't know how work worked. And as I was able to get a second chance, I started to learn how much Paul actually wanted me to win. And I was not listening to the winning side of it. I was feeling the controlling side of it. That was something that to me, I think, is subtle for a lot of people. They think bosses are trying to control when in fact they're trying to help you succeed. But in helping you succeed, they have to talk to you about what's not working. And so, some a lot of really great lessons in that moment, but also in the five years that I got to sit at the feet of the masters, which is what I talk about, sitting at the feet of these two brilliant men who actually ended up giving me the foundation for the rest of my career, right? So, yeah, I learned the hard way, but I was able to recover, but only because I had a boss that was saying second chances. And many bosses would not give you a second chance.

Scott 9:12

Well, and I think the to me, the learning lesson, to me, there's two learning lessons in there. One is, you know, yeah, bosses win, and I I need to understand my role and I need to play my role. And I might not like my role, I might not like what the decisions are, etc. And there are ways of having those conversations. All of that is okay.

Tammy 9:34

Not the way I did it, but yes, there are ways.

Scott 9:38

To me, the other learning lesson, though, is if you're a leader, can you know, are you able to stay calm in the moment and give people a second chance? And this element of am I willing to forgive? Because sometimes I can give people a second chance, but I hold it over them. Yeah, I may not say it to them, but in the back of my oh, they're just doing that again. Oh, they haven't got, and I haven't been able to actually like let it go and move on, whether whether you're a leader or as a peer, like people make mistakes, and can I actually forgive?

Tammy 10:13

Like it's easy to say, yep, I forgive you, but can I actually know it's interesting because in Scott, the book that we wrote, Chief Optimization Officer, Shattering the Status Quo, we talk about kind of the trust equation. And one of the things in that book, and is one of the things I actually was really and still am very proud of, is this concept of people screw up at work every single day. Okay. And we

Forgiveness, Trust, And Second Chances

Tammy 10:43

have to accept that people screw up. We screw up, you screw up. It is part of human nature to not be perfect. And if we don't have a methodology of moving past the mistakes that people make and forgiving them, we cannot have trust. Trust comes from accepting someone who they are, good, bad, and ugly, right? And in that space, working through anything that's going on in that spot and then being able to forgive. I see in organizations all the time that forgiveness is not part of that culture. And it really was part of excellence and training. That company that I worked for, it was part of their culture. I was given grace. I was forgiven, and I had five phenomenal years after that moment. And without that, I would not be here today. Pure and simple. And think about that work, marriages, families, right? Friends. That thing. How do you forgive? Because without forgiveness, trust is impossible.

Scott 11:57

So to me, I think what Karman, your original question, what's a what's a hidden rule at work? I think was the original question. Like to me, I have to give trust and I have to be trustworthy. To me, is a hidden kind of, yeah, generally that's not going to be talked about. You know, I have to I have to know my role. And there is a time and a place and a method for pushing back and giving feedback. Yeah, it's okay to give people feedback. Now, you also have to, just like in to me, in trust, I have to be trusting and I have to be trustworthy. If I am going to give feedback, I have to be willing to get feedback. And this is a place where like many of us will be like, oh yeah, I'm happy to tell you how much you f up. Well, don't tell me when I f up because I'm going to tell you, no, no, no, that's not me. All the reasons why I didn't, I'm not, I don't know many of that. Right. To me, you start to think about many of these traits we want in employees or coworkers. It is a two-way stream. Oh, I want people to be accountable. That means I need to be accountable, which also means I have to be willing to hold someone accountable and say, hey, that's not cool. No, you shouldn't do that. Like that is a two-way stream. For me, saying, Oh, everyone else has to do that, is that really a good employee? So whenever I ask that question in a class, I've yet to have someone say, Oh, yeah, they're a great employee.

Tammy 13:24

Can I have 20 of them? Do you know it's so funny? Biblical principle, right? Is you know, those who is without sin cast the first stone.

Scott 13:32

Yes, right. That's why I have that's why I'm able to throw so many rocks.

Tammy 13:37

You're such a jerk. But this piece, right? I mean, I think there is this thing where we it's so easy to look out there and judge other people, right? And find out what's they are doing wrong and point out what they are doing wrong. And I don't even care. Another department, right? Someone, your coworker in your department, your boss, a vendor, right? We have a tendency to like create enemies by literally pointing fingers and saying they're screwing all that stuff up. And so many times it's like, okay, but have you stepped back for just a minute and recognized how you're screwing up? Where are you in the equation? How are you contributing to the problem before all of that? So I do think that is a big piece that we don't tell folks. It's like we're saying, hey, look for ways that we could be better. And then we start pointing at it, well, everybody else is screwing up. Look for ways that you could be better.

Scott 14:40

Look in the mirror first, dumbass.

Tammy 14:43

Exactly. And you know, the one of my favorite kind of things is people say, Oh, I'm just telling the truth. Okay. Well, yeah, you haven't earned the right to tell the truth until you have looked at you and your say-to-do ratio. You actually do what you say that you are going to do, right? That is something that earns you the right to look at other people in that particular spot. But you don't have the right to be the truth teller until you're adding value to the organization. You're contributing, you're on the plus side of that. You're not the vampire that's, you know, pulling all the life out of the organization. You're actually the lifeblood of the organization. You're easy to do business with, right? You're in relationship with people in that particular spot. And to go back to that word forgiveness, you're willing to forgive others, provide grace to recognize that because you're not perfect, you can also provide grace for others. But in that spot, if you don't have all of that stuff, you don't get to say, Well, I was just telling the truth. Well, start by telling the truth about yourself. And then you earn the right to actually speak up and be heard about other places and other spaces and other people that could grow too in that. But if you can't start with you, and that piece, and we see that all the time, and that is absolutely one of the places that creates toxicity in an organization is I'm gonna tell you what everybody else is doing wrong, but I'm never gonna look in the mirror, right? That piece, I don't like it with individuals, but I also don't like it that leaders accept it. They let people come and come into their office and complain about others and say, oh, poor baby, you're right. Gonna pat you in the back and show you some empathy. Instead of saying, hey, one, before you come in here, what do you need to do? Okay. And two, if you're gonna come in here and talk about Valerie, I need you to actually go and have the conversation with Valerie in a way that Valerie can hear you. Not by telling Valerie she's a bad pooky human being, but by saying, hey, I need to talk to you about this. This is causing me some pain and suffering. Is there another way that we could do this? Right? So take responsibility for yourself, right? That's huge learning lesson inside of an organization that too often we don't tell people. Okay, Scott, I've confessed about one of my big ones. What's yours? What my weakness? Uh learning lesson the hard way. I think that's learning lesson.

Speaker 2 17:23

Sorry, because I was gonna say I don't really have any weaknesses.

Tammy 17:25

That's pretty well knowing. You know, later on, I'm gonna I'm gonna call Dexter and have him have a conversation with you.

Scott 17:32

Yeah. I mean, what he's what Dexter will say is he's gonna say something at the feet of no, he's gonna say something about learning at the feet of the master. Stop it. Stop it. I think my biggest learning lesson was like the there's two that that are like running through my head. And it's funny because it was about the same age as yours.

Tammy 17:59

Maybe that is the time period.

Scott 18:01

I was 27 or 28, and yeah, and I'm just gonna I'll share the situation. And to me, there's kind of these two parallel learning lessons, right? One is hey, if if you tell the truth and you kind of stand up for what you believe is right, there are consequences that come with that.

Tammy 18:21

Yep.

Scott 18:22

And you have to balance those consequences

Scott Defies An Executive And Pays

Scott 18:26

with political collateral.

Tammy 18:28

I know what story you're gonna tell.

Scott 18:30

And I can remember a time where I was quality director, and I got a call from a very high executive and said, Hey, we're gonna come to your facility. Um, we have this report from the field, and we're, you know, we're concerned. And so we're gonna come and investigate. Like it's that concerning. And but they wouldn't give me any details. And I said, Well, who can I who like who's coming and how many people like I need to like tell people? Like, why are you coming? And they're like, You can't. I said, Well, you can't just show up and me not be able to say something. Like, like people are gonna come and ask me, and what do you want me to tell them? And they're like, Well, you can't. You just like, and I said, Well, you know, I am gonna I am gonna tell my boss, and he said, Nope, you can't. I said, Well, are you investigating my boss? No. I said, Okay, well, then I think he has a right to know because like he's in charge of the facility. Unless you tell me you're investigating him personally, totally understand why you can't say anything. So I went down and I told my boss, and my boss was pissed, pissed. Call this executive on the phone who's like five levels above him. They have, and I'm standing in my boss's office and they have an argument, and my boss is like trying to get answers and like, hey, this is inappropriate, and blah, blah, blah. And he finally says, he's talking on the phone, you know, because it's before Zoom and Teams and everything. And he says, Hey, who's in charge of this facility? And the executive like doesn't answer, and and my boss interrupts him and says, No, no, no. I asked you a question. Who's in charge of this facility? And the executive says, Well, you are. And my boss said, Good, don't you forget it, and slammed the phone down.

Tammy 20:17

Oh shit.

Scott 20:19

Like, hung up on him. And I'm like, I am so fired. I am so fired. And anyway, so like this thing happened, and like there was tension between me and this executive for years.

Tammy 20:35

Not your boss, the big not my boss.

Scott 20:38

My boss was like, no, you absolutely should have told me. And so then we had a debrief probably a month after this. You know, they finished their investigation, it was unfounded. Like, nope, it was just somebody misunderstood something. It like there was nothing wonky going on. Like, totally, like, I get it, totally fine. You get a complaint, you gotta go look. I have no issue with that. And we're sitting in my boss's office with this executive, and he's telling me how out of bounds I behaved and like kind of shaming me. And my boss is politely defending, like they had a little bit of friction. And this executive says, So I need to know that you won't ever do this again. And I said, Help me understand, do what again? And he said, When I give you an order, you are to follow it. And I said to him, I can see how you think that's important. And unless you tell me you are investigating my boss, yes, I am gonna go to my boss again because I believe he has a right to know. And if you don't think he has a right to know, then it sounds like you have trust issues, and maybe he shouldn't be in charge of this facility. Because I had told my boss this like this is how I feel. And you can tell me I'm wrong. And the political damage that did for my career lasted 10 years.

Tammy 21:55

So, Karman and listeners, if you don't know this, I actually worked with that. Organization and I actually worked with the executive that Scott is talking about, and that executive told me this story from his perspective, right? At least 15 years later.

Scott 22:16

Yep.

Tammy 22:16

Okay.

Scott 22:17

Like I think I was the only one to ever defy him. Now, what's what's interesting is probably 10 years later, 12, 15 years later, 12 years later, I had a chance at a promotion. And I said, you know, my concern is I'm going to work closely with this person. And if our relationship is still have this friction, it to me it's no, no, because neither of us are going to be successful. And we call and he's and he told me, like, I had done enough to demonstrate that I wasn't the person he was thinking in the owl was water under the bridge, etc., which was great. But again, to me, is there's a way to tell the truth without causing a political catastrophe.

Tammy 23:01

Without getting in their face.

Scott 23:04

Yeah. And I in my mind, in that moment, which again, in hindsight, I was in his face, but I was super calm about it. Like I didn't raise my voice. I didn't do like I just said, you know, hey, this is my perspective. And it is a little bit of like, hey, yeah, when you're, you know, when your bosses, bosses, bosses, bosses, boss.

Tammy 23:22

There's a little formality that is required.

Scott 23:25

Formality there, yes.

Tammy 23:26

As you walk up. And that is again, I think about like a phrase that sometimes executives use. I have an open door policy. And we have individuals who don't have a lot of organizational maturity who actually take that literally, and then they walk into their bosses, bosses, bosses, bosses, bosses' office and like say things in a way that are not formal and haven't thought

How To Speak Up Without Fallout

Tammy 23:52

about there is a different way that this group of people thinks. This is a different way that they communicate. And I need to bring something in a way that they can hear me. And Scott, that's really what you're talking about. It's like it's not that what you said wasn't true. The question is, how could you have said that in a way that didn't trash your career? And how many times did you get overlooked in that organization for promotion?

Scott 24:20

At least five times.

Tammy 24:22

And ultimately you left that organization because you struggled with having folks actually give you that next opportunity. And you and I know part of it is because of that one thing, right?

Scott 24:38

Part of it was, you know, not playing the political game, which again, I personally think is colossally stupid. And the reality is you have to play the game because that is the game.

Tammy 24:49

Well, you have to figure out how to play it in a way that you can still have integrity for you. For sure. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that's the spot that I think is a lesson that people don't understand. We call it political, okay? And we want to like give it this really negative connotation when, in all honesty, it is trying to figure out how to work with someone so that we have win-win outcomes. How do we move things forward? And that does require relationship. It does thinking about modifying to meet, like, hey, this is how they need to get this information, right? That doesn't make you inauthentic. It makes you say, I am doing what I need to get the outcomes I want within my own level of integrity. Okay. And you had a boss in that moment, Scott, that gave you a really bad example. Who's effing in charge here? Don't you forget it. Slam. Okay. Oh, yeah. That's power and authority. And he's teaching you that you can say who's the big dog, right? Yeah. Well, that is actually.

Scott 25:59

And then, yeah, for sure. And I and I think of every when I think of every leader that I saw there, there were good things and challenging things. Because I'm thinking of the leader who came after him, who did a lot of amazing things for the organization, and was probably the hardest person I've ever had to work for. Because he like there was a level of precision that he was really hard to understand. Now it took time, and I was able to foster a relationship. And to me, we had a really good relationship. I could talk to him, and you had to figure out how to talk to him.

Tammy 26:40

And that's that piece. And so politics doesn't have to be negative, it's figuring out how to make it work to get outcomes that are important for you, for the organization, right? It's not selfishness, it's about moving the organization forward in that particular spot. I had a coach that I was working with, and this individual was struggling with their boss and actually said to me, I'm done. I'm walking out the door. And I was like, hey, we don't make these decisions this quickly. In six months, if you want to walk out the door, that's fine. All right. But we're going to work through this. And the gift in this is to understand that sometimes you're going to have to work for and with difficult people. So let's figure out how we can, you can learn to work with someone that you don't prefer. And they were like, Are you kidding me? And I'm like, Yeah, I'm not kidding you. This is a gift in this moment because you're always going to have to work with people you don't prefer. So in this space, now is that political? Some people would say it is. I would tell you it's not political. It's a life lesson, right? When you marry someone, you marry their parents or their siblings. You might not like them, but you got to figure out how to make it work. When you go into a neighborhood, your neighbor's on the left and the right of you or across the street, you might not like prefer like prefer them, but you got to make it work. The life is filled with folks that you might not like. And how do you make it work? That actually is the foundation of politics, which is what you're talking about. And I think that is something that we don't teach people at work. And we should.

Scott 28:27

And the examples around us, whether you talk politics, whether you talk friendship, whether you talk marriage, whether you talk work, there are so many examples that are not ideal.

Tammy 28:41

We divorce them. Yep. Okay. We villainize them. And here's the deal. If you can walk away, but should you always walk away? And villainizing others, right? Saying, I'm right, you're wrong. Everything that comes out of your mouth is BS, everything comes out of my mouth is accurate. That villainizing, that polarizing, that also doesn't help anyone. So this spot, we are surrounded by bad examples. And the question is, can we learn to be the a better example?

Being A Better Example At Work

Scott 29:14

Yeah.

Tammy 29:14

And make the world a better example.

Scott 29:16

Are you to me? The question is, are you willing to be a good example?

Tammy 29:22

Because it's hard work.

Scott 29:26

Right. And so to me, it's like, are you willing to put in the effort and work to be a good example? Even if you are surrounded by bad examples or suboptimal examples.

Tammy 29:37

I love, I love that thought. That's a great thought to leave them with.