You Can't Build Accountability Without This...

The fastest way to lose credibility as a leader is to promise consequences you can’t deliver. We start with a real workplace scenario: a manager tries to build a culture of accountability on a large team, but HR and senior leadership keep making exceptions. The result is a familiar mess in performance management, unclear standards, uneven follow-through, and a leader who feels like they’re fighting uphill with no backing.

We walk through two truths that can exist at the same time. First, you have to see what your organization is actually willing to uphold, not what the handbook claims. Second, if the standard really matters, you can and should make the case. We talk about how to prep your boss before a difficult conversation, how to ask for support without asking permission, and how to keep the message focused on what’s best for the organization and the employee, not what’s annoying you.

Then we get practical and specific: what does “accountability” look like in action? Clear expectations, early conversations, evidence, documentation, and consistent follow-through. We also dig into the “HR won’t let me” myth and why leaders often get blocked only after they’ve skipped the uncomfortable steps. If you want a stronger workplace culture and better team behavior, this is the work.

Transcript

Banter, Ego, And Inside Jokes

Tammy 0:31

Good morning, Tammy and Scott.

Karman 0:34

Good morning, Karman. Good morning, Karman.

Tammy 0:38

Ooh, Scott has so much enthusiasm today.

Karman 0:41

Well, this morning he that sounds a little flat. Last night he told me he felt like a dexahedron, uh duodexahedron. What is it?

Tammy 0:53

Dexahedron. I can't okay. I can't spell it, so therefore I can't look it up.

Scott 0:58

So Scott, you're just gonna said be there or be square. And I said, what did I say? I said, no, I I'd rather be a dihexahedron. So dihexahedron is a 12-sided crystal.

Karman 1:13

Of course you would be. And I said, always so complex. Yeah, you know, Scott always wants to be the most interesting complex in the room.

Tammy 1:24

The fact that he even knows what that is, which I actually don't necessarily believe that he did. I think he just looked it up and then and then shot it back at us so that we wouldn't feel stupid.

Scott 1:33

Well the reason I picked that one is because I was gonna say I was gonna be a dodex ahedron, but I couldn't. I every time I tried to spell it, Siri was being a pain in my ass. And so I'm like, fine, I'll look it up and I'll paste it. And then that one came up, and I'm like, oh, that one's more fun. So I pasted that one.

Tammy 1:50

Okay, see, I was correct.

Scott 1:51

He looked it up and now he looks for I didn't go looking for that, I knew what it was. And you know, the reality is, you know, my humor is primarily for me. It's not for the rest of you all.

Speaker 2 2:07

It's just energy.

Scott 2:11

So, you know, sometimes where it you know it doesn't land with people, it just reinforces how much smarter and competent I am than everyone else in the world.

Karman 2:22

Oh Lord, some people are embarrassed when a joke they make doesn't land, but yeah, no, for Scott, it's mission accomplished.

Scott 2:32

Mission accomplished, you bumbling idiots.

Tammy 2:35

And he literally just told the whole wide world how big his ego is. There it is, Mr.

unknown 2:41

Bergmeyer.

Tammy 2:44

Oh my gosh. It's and it's a good thing that we love you, Scott.

Scott 2:50

Yeah, I was happy yet, you know, in our meeting yesterday. One person caught my my good one. So yeah.

Tammy 2:56

One of eight.

Scott 2:57

One of eight, yes.

Tammy 2:59

I don't even remember it. Was it me or did I miss it completely?

Scott 3:02

No, it wasn't you. I don't think you heard me. I said it kind of quiet. Yeah.

Tammy 3:06

All right, because I'm like, I don't remember your having anything like that in the meeting. So, and we were completely across the room. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, by the way, I had a listener stop me yesterday and she said, I am very convinced that you're talking about me all the time. And I giggled, I was like, really? Well, now that you mention it, we do we do use you know, current situations that we've talked about. There is no question about that, but I don't know. Have we ever specifically targeted a human?

Scott 3:43

No, not that I am aware of.

Karman 3:46

I mean, the only thing I'm the one who's making the questions, so I know if I'm targeting a human.

Speaker 2 3:52

And and are you targeting a human, Karman?

Karman 3:55

Sometimes I mean, here's the thing.

Tammy 3:59

I thought you were so I thought you were the nice one of the three.

Karman 4:02

Well, no, that's not like targeting as a bad thing, but am I taking a real situation that I've maybe talked to somebody about in coaching and said, like, hey, I think I've heard I've heard this two or three times and with other people, like we should probably just talk about this.

Scott 4:20

Totally makes sense. So if you're if here's what I would say we are generally not talking about you unless you are currently listening to this on a Thursday on your way to work. Because I know who this listener is, and I believe they listen to it on Thursdays on their way to work.

Speaker 2 4:36

And and of course, then you know, I hope I hope this person is laughing at this particular time.

Scott 4:42

Well, they know it's funny because I may I may have texted them yesterday morning and they laugh because oh, they said, Whoa, that was weird because I was listening to your podcast.

Tammy 4:52

That's exactly what this individual told me. So there you go. When this person listens, they will know at least right now we are talking about it. We're talking specifically about them. Yes, but 99.9% of the time, it's just lots of people have this issue. And so if it applies to you, but see, that's how I feel when I go to church. It's like, oh my gosh, the minister knows exactly what I am.

Scott 5:18

Whenever I go to church, I'm like, that's a sin, really?

Tammy 5:22

No, that little thing, Deuteronomy, man. You gotta read Deuteronomy, it's right in there, it's very, very clear.

Scott 5:32

You know, there's a lot of ones in there, and yeah, look, we should probably not have that conversation on the podcast, of course, because someone is gonna really look at you and know they're gonna like right now, they just think you're naughty, but then they'll know you're naughty.

Tammy 5:48

Yeah.

Karman 5:48

When uh the soles of Scott's feet get a little hot when he steps into a church, you know.

Tammy 5:56

It's a sign, it's a sign. So, but remember, church is a place where all of us who sin, that's like where we need to be. It's like our little hospital.

Speaker 2 6:05

So it's probably come on in, come don't break.

Scott 6:10

If truly the the reality is, you know, well, depending on your religion, you know, you really don't need to go to church. You just repent on your deathbed and you'll be fine.

A Real Leadership Accountability Scenario

Karman 6:19

All right. We're not, I'm just gonna shut this down now. We're not going there, Scott. We're not going there. Because today it's funny that you mention real readers and real questions because Marlene, our colleague Marlene and I have collected a group of scenarios that we're using in a workshop later this morning. And one of these scenarios I wanted to bring to you guys for your perspective on. So this isn't a we're not talking about that one listener that we've been talking about. It's it's not her question, but it is a real question. So this is a leader who's been working on her accountability skills, holding people accountable. She has a big team, and she finds that as she's uh trying to change the culture a little bit, that she's not getting the backup that she needs from her leader or from HR about holding people accountable. So, you know, there's that sort of like, yeah, but you know, Sally has 29 children, and so we're, you know, if she calls in sick twice as much as everybody else, we just need to be okay with that, or whatever the you know, the situations are.

Tammy 7:45

So that's what the HR and or the the leader's boss would say kind of make excuses.

Karman 7:52

Make excuses. And so so a leader who's working on accountability but maybe gets undermined by people farther up the ladder.

Tammy 8:03

Powers, powers that be.

Karman 8:05

Powers that be.

Tammy 8:07

All right, so a couple of things. There's two ways that I would talk about this. Okay. Are we upholding policies and expectations that in general is something that the organization will uphold? Okay. And I hate to even start here. It is, however, one of the things that like we have to deal with this reality. As a leader, if I have a set of expectations that I would like to impose on my team, if that is not supported by HR, if it's not supported by the organization, I probably have the bar too high.

Karman 8:57

So, in other words, there's no it does, it's not a policy, it's not a, or are you talking about things that maybe are technically supposed to be upheld by the organization, but the organization just doesn't?

Tammy 9:10

Yes. And I hate to say that, okay, because oftentimes we do have an attendance policy. Oftentimes we do have things that are in place, but many, many, many, many organizations that we walk into, what they say are the policies and or what they say are the expectations of an employee is not what they do. And as a leader, if we are trying to uphold policies that as a whole are not being upheld, or we're trying to set in behavioral standards that the organization has no intention of saying that yes to that, you are climbing an uphill battle. Okay.

Karman 9:50

Because you need to listen to what your leader or HR is essentially telling you, which is stop trying to hold people accountable to this because it's not important to us.

Tammy 10:02

Correct. Right. And that's a hard one because you could actually be holding them accountable to something that you know is really important. Okay. But when you are holding them accountable at third story of the building and the organization is only holding them accountable at the second story of the building, that gap is a gap where in reality you're probably going to lose. All right. Because you don't have the backing that you need to be able to eventually say, if this doesn't change, you're not going to be here. And if you ever need to say, if this doesn't change, you're not going to be here. And everybody knows that that is BS. So it's kind of like, you do that one more time, child, and I, you know, and here's the consequence, but the consequence never comes, then the intent the integrity your seeing as a person who's telling the truth uh is diminished. So I even hate to start here because it's I wish that wasn't true. However, inside an organization, you have to understand what the organization is willing to uphold, what the organization is not willing to uphold, and make some decisions around that. So that's the first thing that I would tell you, okay, is like be smart and think about it. But here's the second part of it. Maybe they should uphold it. Okay. Maybe what you are asking for is right and correct and makes a lot of sense. Okay. But you're watching, I'm holding them accountable, but I'm watching it get undermined by other places so that my words don't have teeth anymore. Well, to me, that's then is the conversation that you have to have with that entity. And let's just say it's your boss, okay? One of the things that I have learned long time ago is I know that I'm gonna hold Karman accountable. I it's a conversation I need to have. And I know historically that my boss hasn't backed me on that. And one of the important things that I need to do is I need to inform my boss and ask for the support. So, hey, boss, I am gonna have a conversation with Karman on Monday. I want to walk through the scenario with you, right? So you understand what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, right? Walk through it and say, Do I have your support? I know that Karman is gonna not like this. I know that this is gonna be difficult, and I'm doing it because this is the outcome I'm going for. I think Karman has a lot of potential, but if this doesn't change, Karman's not gonna be able to reach that potential. And so I'm gonna have a difficult conversation. Can I count on you to support my decision? Okay. And in that space, if they tell me no, I'm gonna be like, help me understand. Give me your perspective. Why shouldn't I do this? Okay. And we can have that conversation. Sometimes it's they don't like conflict, sometimes it's Karman's a really good employee. Why are we doing this? I have to have a good case, not because it's a Karman needs to have this conversation because she's driving me crazy. It's because what's the best thing for the organization and what's the best thing for Karman, right? And if I can make my case, oftentimes I can get the powers that be to align with me and to back me.

Karman 13:25

And then if they I want to point out one little subtle thing there, Tammy, that you said that I think I hear a lot of people do, I'll call it wrong. And that's in approaching that conversation, you've said to your leader or to HR, here's what I'm going to do. Will you back me up? And a lot of times I think what people do is they go to that leader and say, Would it be okay if I held Karman accountable? Oh, they're asking permission. They're asking permission instead of saying, Here's my intention and here's what I am asking you for. And that is a, I think that's a really subtle difference, but I think that it's an important one.

Tammy 14:09

Well, and unfortunately, Karman, I'm gonna tell you that people in our gender oftentimes ask for permission instead of making the case, right? So that is a very female trait as well that we see in that space. And you actually said that this person was female, so there's a little interesting tidbit in that spot. It is this thing that says, I need to make the case, and it cannot be a case based upon their ticking me off. Why is it best for the organization? Why is it best for the individual that I need to have the conversation with? Okay. And this is what I'm doing, this is why I'm doing it, all right, this is when I'm doing it, and will you please back me? And then if they say yes, that's great, I go do it. If they say no, we talk about it. And then if they said yes, and then I actually go do it and they don't back me, now I have to go back and have the second conversation. Okay, you told me that you would, and it didn't happen. Help me understand what happened. Notice I'm not screaming, notice I'm not yelling, notice I'm not, you know, I'm saying help me understand why we had this conversation. I thought we had come to an agreement. And that sometimes is things that people don't want to do. They don't want to have that conversation with HR, they don't want to have that conversation with their boss. Now, Scott, Karman and I have been talking about this, and I've been giving you a second to jump in. So, what it what's your thought pattern in this?

Scott 15:33

So, you know, as I've been sitting here thinking about this, it hits me kind of two things. One is one of my favorite questions to ask leaders, and especially if it's like leaders in inside the same organization, or even if they're like just talking about accountability. I like to ask them to define accountability, not the word, but what does it look like in action when I am holding someone accountable? What am I doing as a leader? And I have them make a list of what are the actions that they're doing. I watch many, many leaders struggle to make that list.

Tammy 16:15

Okay, so let's I think that's actually smart, Scott. So let Karman and I play people that you've asked that question. Okay. So, Karman, you give one, I'll give one. Okay, let's see what see what we come up with.

Karman 16:28

I'm not sure I'm understanding the question yet.

Scott 16:31

No, it's okay. So so we can use the word accountability, like we need to hold people more accountable. Like we hear that many, many times, right? And so I even do this with staff. I then say, okay, let's define accountability. I don't want us to go Google what does accountability mean. I want to know, all right, if you were saying, oh, our leaders are holding people accountable, what are they doing? What are the what are the actions? What are the tasks that they're doing that you would see them?

Karman 17:02

What's where do we see them doing?

Scott 17:04

Yeah, is accountability. They okay, they just held that person accountable.

Karman 17:07

I would say calling out unacceptable behavior.

Scott 17:12

Okay, so I'm I'm gonna call it out, I'm gonna talk about it, I'm gonna do something.

Tammy 17:17

Notice it, I have to know something about it to the individual. So to me, Karmafn, that's really what you were saying. I noticed it and I had a conversation with the individual, not with everybody else. Okay. The second one that I would tell you is even before I notice something, I am going to have conversations where I tell people these are my expectations around how you will behave with me, with one another, with customers, how you will go about completing your work, what quality looks like. So I am going to be having conversations about what is successful work, what's successful behaviors, those types of things prior to, right? So I'm not always catching them doing it wrong. I am actually telling them what right looks like. Okay.

Karman 18:16

Karman, do you have another one? I might have a system for some data. Not not every, not every piece of accountability is data driven or applicable. But, you know, if we're talking attendance, there is a way to literally track attendance so that I'm not just saying like it feels like you're late a lot. Information.

Scott 18:39

So Karman, so so I I always think like it's I think that's a great, like it's evidence. I need to have evidence. Evidence. Yeah. Which could be hard data. You were you you were late on the the 12th, the 15th, and 21st. Or it could be I observed this in such and such meeting. I listened to your phone call with the client when you said they're a fumbling idiot.

Tammy 19:04

Right. And and by the way, that data should be documented. Okay. Now, not every piece of it, okay. Um, because I don't need to have a, you know, this big look, you're good today, you were bad today, you know, like the tart that you put on the refrigerator for kids, smiley faces, sad faces. It's not that. But when I have had conversations with you about this in the past, I need to have notes for myself so that when that person says, You've never told me that before, I can say, actually, we had that conversation on April 8th, right? So that that thing where you constantly doubt yourself as a leader, that you're like, did I say it? I don't really remember. That that is not a place that we can have wiggle room in. So when I have had a conversation, I need to document it. Again, not even necessarily for HR, but for me to know that I've done my job. Okay, Karman, I don't know. Is there another one? Measurement, documentation, telling them, setting expectations.

Scott 20:13

What's the ultimate accountability inside an organization?

Karman 20:16

Following through on the, I don't want to call it a threat, but on the consequence.

Scott 20:22

Okay. And so what is that ultimate consequence?

Karman 20:25

Firing.

Scott 20:26

Fired, right? And and so there's probably levels between this, I talk to you and firing. Okay. And so what's so in in my experience, right? As I ask people that think, like, we eventually get this list, and then we say, okay, so that is what accountability is. They're like, yeah, okay. And we talk about like what order do we do these in. And like, of course, if it's super egregious, you walk in and punch someone in the face, you're probably getting fired, and there's not going to be levels, but like we have all of that conversation. And then to me, my question to them is all right, so what we're saying is this is what you want to do, and you want it done fairly and equitably across everything. Yep, that's right. Okay, excellent. That also means you. When you don't do something, you need to have one of these. And of course, everybody's like, Well, well, I mean, that's for everybody else because I don't do anything wrong, right? And we have this whole, like, yeah, we want this until we turn the mirror on ourselves. And it's so for me, it is just fascinating because most of the time when people say we need to hold people accountable, when I have dug through it, what they're really saying is, hey, my coworker, that person over there, is not doing something right. They should be talked to and written up versus coming and saying, no, have we set expectations? Have we had the conversations? And I'm not saying don't write them up. I'm just saying, have have we as a leader done our work?

The “HR Won’t Let Me” Myth

Tammy 22:00

Well, the funny thing about that, Scott, is when I've had those same kind of conversations and we get to the place where, yes, that's accountability. And then we're like, okay, then this piece now this applies to you as well. And they're like, even if I can get these leaders to say yes, it applies to me as well. I'm like, okay, so how many of you have under for underperforming employees? Okay. How many of you have done this? And they all stare at me and I Said, oh, so now I get to write you all up. Okay. Because in that's one of the things that's interesting is like I have underperforming employees. Have you done your work? Okay. And oftentimes, Karman, to come back to your question, they won't let me. Okay. HR won't let me. My boss will undermine me. Okay. Before we even go there, sometimes we need to say, have you tried? Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I know HR. Or we have actually, I have an HR department that we're working with right now. And they were like, Tammy, we're going to have you come in and talk about accountability. But you need to understand that they say all the time, HR won't let me. And it's just not true. Okay. And that is their way of avoiding setting expectations, having the conversations, documenting those conversations, following procedures, right? What they want to do is not have all those conversations because that's hard work, right? It's a little uncomfortable. And then when they get really ticked off at the employee and they've had enough, then they go to HR and say, we need to fire this person, right? And they go from zero to 60, right? Instead of following accountability in that spot. And HR says, you can't do it because I don't have any of this history that says you did what accountability looked like. So while this employee may very well be egregious, what have you been doing along the way? Have you done your job? And sometimes the answer is no. Okay.

Scott 24:03

Many times it is no.

Tammy 24:05

And then you want to blame HR as a leader, or you want to blame your boss and say, they won't let me. No, you didn't do your job.

Karman 24:13

And a little bit back to were you waiting for permission from HR to do your job, or were you doing your job?

Early Conversations And The 85% Rule

Scott 24:23

Yeah. And part of, you know, Timmy, you said something earlier, this expectations thing. Before I can do this whole list of accountability stuff, I need to go and say, what are those expectations? And where are the places where, and and this is just my experience. I recommend to leaders as I'm working with them, whether I'm coaching, whether we're doing leadership development, whatever that, like, okay, what is what is your list? What's your list? And there are some there are some red rules that are like, okay, if this happens, we're done. Yes, you come in and you punch someone in the face, you're done. You embezzle money, you're done. Like, in my experience, those usually are not the problems.

Tammy 25:04

No, it's behavioral. It's these small behavioral things. Yeah.

Scott 25:08

And so you then you say, okay, where where are the places? And in my experience, if you have conversations early and often, you many times avoid having the letter of discussion and a pip and uh all these other things. That doesn't mean you're never gonna have to do them.

Tammy 25:27

The research supports you, Scott. The research says that when you see someone do something that you don't want them to do and you have a conversation, and it's not a conversation that says, hey, you do that again, you're gonna get fired. It's a conversation that is very light, okay? It's a touch. It's like, hey, that's not how we do things around here. Just wanted you to know and bring it to your attention. And so next time something like that happens, I would like you to do this instead. Okay. Very simple. Notice that was like three sentences. Okay. The research says that when you actually have that conversation, you have an 85% chance that they won't do it again. Okay. But if you actually see it and don't say anything, and then see it and don't say anything, and see it and don't say anything, now that employee thinks that's normal and accepted here. So then when you do have the conversation, they're like, What do you mean? I've been doing that for the last three months. And by the way, I'm not the only one that does that. So does so and so and so and so and so and so. And why aren't you talking with them? Why are you picking on me?

Karman 26:32

Well, the other piece of that, which we kind of talked about last week, is I think Scott called it in change, like, what's right with this? And what can you control? And if you feel like, okay, when you, you know, have to elevate stuff, you're not getting that support above you. Like, okay, what can I control? Well, I can still, I can still say, hey, that's not how we talk to each other. Hey, it's when you're not here on time, it makes our day really difficult. Like, whatever those little touches are, like you can still do that because it's that is under your control.

The Core Question For Leaders

Tammy 27:09

And and in that space, I mean, honestly, as a leader, they can say, Well, they don't make me do that in other departments. It's like, all right, if you would like to work for another department, please feel free to apply. Okay. In our world, this is what we do in our department, and that's no different. Zoe is is my goddaughter. And I remember she has her mom's house, she has her dad's house, she has sets of grandparents' house, and then she has her godparents' house, Michael and I. And she would say, you know, they don't make me do that at so-and-so's house. And I'd be like, Yeah, I know, but you're not at so-and-so's house, you're in my house, right? And sometimes there are different expectations of how we're gonna act and how we're going to behave, right? When I'm in a tavern and I'm having a pint of beer, I'm gonna behave probably a little different than when I go to Easter service. Okay, right. We can easily modify in the situations that we're in. And so that's the other thing. Again, the company, I'm not gonna threaten you and say, if you don't do this, we're gonna fire you. I'm gonna say, in our department, this is how we do it. On our team, this is how we do it, right? And we do have the ability inside of that to say, we have this standard. And that employee can say, they don't make me over there. And I'm like, okay, go over there. Well, I'm not an accountant. Well, okay, well, I'm sorry. Then if you want to kind of do this kind of work with our team, this is how we do it. And that is a very fair thing to say to your team, right? But notice the leader is doing the work. Okay, they're telling people what the expectations are, right? When they aren't meeting the expectations, they say something about it, right? They're giving them tools and training to understand what it is that we're looking for, and they're giving them the time to make the change. If you do that, you're doing your job. But as a leader, look at all the work you have to do. You have to do that work with the employee. And then sometimes you have to do other work with HR, other work with your boss, but that's still your job as the leader in order to ensure that you get the behaviors and the actions that you want with your teammates. So the big question is are you doing your job, leader? Are you doing your job?