Karman: 0:31

Good morning, Scott and Tammy. Good morning, Karman. What's going down, Karman? The temperature. That is a true statement.

Speaker 2: 0:46

It is cold today. You're in Iowa. What can you say? I'm not in Iowa. I'm in Florida. And it's cold in Florida today.

Karman: 0:56

Yeah, we've got three states covered here, and I think cold. All of us. I think we have four states covered.

Speaker 2: 1:04

Where do you get four?

Scott: 1:07

We have Iowa, we have Texas, we have Florida, and the state of denial.

Speaker 2: 1:15

It's a cold day in denial.

Karman: 1:22

Wow, I wish I had a transition from that to our topic, but I I'm not, I can't make it connect today.

Speaker 2: 1:31

Yeah.

Karman: 1:32

So we've been talking about Tammy and Scott's lessons from 2025. I'm thinking today about at our year-end retreat. We did a lot of, you know, what worked, what didn't work, what would we do differently, the the growth questions that become more is so good at. And as I've been talking to other people lately, one of the things that keeps coming up is how do you normalize that kind of feedback, both as an organization and for individuals? Like, how do you how do you teach somebody who then in some cases people who have maybe not been in the workforce for very long? And so they don't know what feedback looks like. And sometimes people that have been in the workforce for a long time and just always got told, you know, you're fine, you're fine, pat on the head. And then when they need some real behavioral or performance feedback, they kind of don't know how to handle it. So how do you normalize that?

Speaker 2: 2:42

Scott, how did it happen for you?

Scott: 2:44

I mean, I can think of art like really early in my career. If I think way back when I first think about when did it start, it's weird to think in art classes. You would you would take whatever you drew or painted or whatever, and it would go and you would put it in front of the class. And then, I mean, it was critique time. What did you like about? And it wasn't as formal as we did it, but it really was. What do you like about it? And what do you what do you not like about it? Or what feedback would you give? Like, oh, the color's wonky, or you know, whatever. Colored outside the line is not, I mean, this was cut, I'm thinking high school and college uh kind of thing. And then I think the next big kind of thinking for me was in graduate school, we would have meetings on your research, and you would get feedback red lines on papers or your research, or you know, whatever, whatever that was. And then I was I've always thought I was kind of lucky because when I worked at Bridgetone, I got like, I think I still have scanned copies of a bunch of like my 360s. Like it just became normal to do 360s. Yeah, you did performance reviews and that kind of stuff, which just to me was in many organizations and with different leaders, that was pencil whipped, you know, it to justify you met with someone. But I think I got more value out of the 360 and the mentoral relationship, and then we started working together, Tammy, and that it became more and more formalized. So I like I would say it became formalized, probably for me in coaching. Coaching, really. Now, I think I did it and it was normal. Now, I would also say as I matured, I was able to take it better. That that right then early on in my career, I you know, I might get feedback and be like, oh, you're normal didn't mean you liked it. You know, well, and I might be mentally thinking, good talk and go do whatever I want.

Speaker 2: 5:00

Uh Scott, I'm kind of glad that you went through kind of your your timeline on that because it it helped me, gave me a beat to think about mine. You know, I grew up in a in a household where we were not supposed to make mistakes. And I don't think it's so, I don't think that household is odd. I think a lot of people grow up in a household where you're supposed to do it right the first time. You know, you're supposed to have the right answer on a test, and you're supposed to have like this is the right path. You're not supposed to make mistakes and take, you know, these little side trips to get there. And I still remember working for Excellence in Training Corporation, which was my first real step into kind of uh curriculum design. And I was writing a video-based training program, and I'm writing the script, and I spent a tremendous amount of time putting together the script and the dialogue and all that kind of stuff, and I turned it in. My bosses, Paul and Frank, you know, the feet of the masters that I've talked about in in my history, went over that draft with me, and they redlined it. There was one word in there that I fought for. I mean, it was like, no, this is exactly the right word. It was one word in this whole thing. And I remember Paul, who was my direct boss, Frank was my was Paul's boss. I remember Paul saying, Why are you fighting so hard for this word? And I said, Because I spent a lot of time on it, and I really believe it is the right word for this character. And Paul said, This is a draft, Tammy. And I didn't understand that when he said it. Okay, I was 27, and I just remember the conversation, but I didn't really get it. And I continued on in my career, but one of the weird things that happened to me is I remember being 37, and all of a sudden, some of the things that Paul said to me, you know, these these moments that he was giving me feedback when I was 27, and I was so adamant and like I would push back so hard on him. At 37, for some reason, I was like, oh, that's what Paul meant. Oh, there's the learning lesson. Oh, you know, and I will tell you, I was not good at receiving feedback. I thought I was right, I pushed hard, and in retrospect, I kind of feel bad because I think Paul was really trying to help me grow and become more, and I was not open to it. However, that lesson, this is a draft, has always stuck with me. And I think one of the things for normalizing is what are the words that we're using. And what's so cool about coaching is coaching is not necessarily a boss employee relationship. And so the coach is asking the question, what did you learn? And I think that's a really great way to normalize learning, right? The tripping and the falling that we do forward in that process of getting better. And so there's not as much, you know, you're in trouble and it's going to show up on a performance evaluation and you're supposed to be perfect at work. I do think coaching is a great way to learn how to iterate. I also think, though, that the language that a boss or a company can use in hierarchy is this piece that that just asks the question, what did you learn? What did you learn from this? And making learning the expectation versus hiding and trying to be perfect. And, you know, Karman, that's been part of our learning lessons as we brought staff in, is that every single staff member that is with our organization has told us this process of like talking about what we don't do well and like bringing our mistakes to the table is so painful. And and at this point, it's so normal to Scott and I. And we are have learned by listening to all of you that it wasn't normal, and that by the time Scott and I have gotten here, you know, Scott learned it probably, right? That process of growing further and further and further in your career. I learned it just by going, oh, thank you, Paul. You know, thank you. And maybe we just have to like tell folks, I don't expect you to be perfect. I expect you to try and learn.

Scott: 10:13

There is, as I'm listening to you, what I what I keep thinking about is learning in some and many places, frankly, I think has been pushed out with the focus on results. So there is this, I think there is this thing happening in the world around us, is well, we have to get results or outcomes. And I'm not saying outcomes aren't important, they're critically important.

Karman: 10:37

Right.

Scott: 10:41

Yes, that's what it and to me, it's more like maybe my outcome sometimes is learning. I can't, I can't do a hundred percent learning in an organization because I won't get, you know, I'll dissatisfy my customers. I'll like I'll miss that. And so like there's a time and a place to do that learning and that growth. Now, I would say, yeah, we learn and grow all the time, but I'm just thinking, okay, if I have a new staff member, it can't be like, oh yeah, go explore whatever you want, no problem. Hey, whatever, don't worry about what the customer needs, you know. And then there's uh I was looking up the software development, the agile, right? Agile. Okay. So one of the things responding to change, getting feedback early and often. I'm paraphrasing the principles here. And you and you think about part of this really is what we're talking about is how are you moving net forward, getting feedback along the way and and adjusting? And how are you mature enough to be able to take that feedback in and not be an order taker and like think it through? And because to me, it's this it's this constant barragement of I have to get results, and I have all these tasks and I'm overwhelmed, and I really don't think I just like put my head down and do, and I and I like it almost is like we've we've forced out learning.

Speaker 2: 12:23

Well, think I'm just gonna take it back to a Star Wars story, Yoda, right? Yoda said, you know, don't try, do we must. Yes, do we must. And this this spot of it's like, and and yet remember, Yoda was the mentor, and yet he was telling, don't try, he was saying, just get it done. However, in order for it to get it done, there was a ton of practice. They went out in the middle of nowhere and just practiced and worked at it and got their craft done, right? And I think one of the things that we don't, we're so flipping busy at work that we don't think about the process of iterating, the process of drafting, you know, bring something to the table really early and then let's just rip it apart. And you know, in Chief Optimization Officer, we talk about I think it's Pixar's methodology of, you know, they would bring something to the table and let whoever wanted to critique it, critique it. But the person that actually created it gets to make the decisions. Now, this is interesting in their in their process. It's like, hey, I want you guys to tell me what you think. It's kind of like your art, Scott. Here, I want all your feedback, but I'm gonna listen to it, I'm gonna consider it, and then I'm gonna go do what I think is next best thing, right? So think about that for just a minute. If we were to put inside of an organization a system, where it's like, I'm just bringing something to the table, I want you to react to it. And then my job is to get big old dumbo ears, listen and listen well, right? And write everything down. And I might be reactive even in that moment of listening, but if I set it aside and then come back to it the next day, there's probably something in there for me to hear. And I think that is maybe the other thing. It's like, don't be, you don't have to make a decision about whether that's right or wrong today. If you can just write it down, listen to it, consider it, and let it then sink in for a little bit, there's probably something in there. And that is the other thing I think we as an organization need to recognize. It's like just because I have an opinion, even as a boss, doesn't mean I'm always right. So, you know, in the end, each individual needs to listen to the feedback that they've been given, consider it, look for what's right in it, and then decide what they want to do with it. Something, nothing, it's their call, and that's the other side of it. It's also normalizing the fact that you are still in control of you, right?

Karman: 15:25

You can't is it different if you're talking about a work product versus behavior? Not to me.

Scott: 15:35

I don't yeah, I don't see I yeah, yeah, not to me.

Speaker 2: 15:39

And and here's why. I think it's the perfect work product. My boss thinks it's a piece of shit. I might stand next to my work okay, and say, this is why I think I it's the right thing. And the work boss might say, That's it's still shit. And I'm like, I I believe it's not. There may be a consequence to me because the boss has power and authority that I don't have, okay. But in the end, that is that is I think we do need to recognize feedback is not something that you just take. Feedback is something you should be thinking about, you should be analyzing, you should be deciding for yourself. And in the end, if you say no, you say no. Yeah.

Scott: 16:28

Now and you have to own the consequences with that. Correct. So if you say no, I'm not gonna take my boss's feedback, and you go forward and it blows up in your face, whatever happens to you is on you.

Speaker 2: 16:45

Right.

Scott: 16:46

That's no one else, right? And that's well, they should have told me or they should have stopped. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2: 16:53

I mean, you the two of you know that I have actually been fired from a position because I told my boss no. Okay. And guess what? I would still make that decision today. It was for me the right decision. Did I like being fired? No, I didn't like being fired. Did I deserve to be fired? Yeah, I deserved to be fired because my boss told me to do something and I said no, that's not the right thing. I did not align. Okay. And so therefore, I had to live with the consequences of that in that particular spot. So I think that's the other thing about normalizing feedback, is I think sometimes people feel like I have no choice but to do exactly what everybody says that I should be doing. I think we have to recognize that sometimes you're gonna get feedback and you don't want to be that person. Sometimes you're gonna get feedback and you don't want to do the work that way. Sometimes you get the feedback and you're thinking, I don't even want that job. So we still have choices in all of this. I think that's also part of what makes it scary. It's bad enough to get feedback, but now you're telling me I have to decide what to do with that feedback, and then I have to live with the consequences of that feedback. And the answer to that is yes. That's a really interesting thing to think about, too.

Karman: 18:23

So you're a leader, you've given somebody some feedback. If they don't take it, it doesn't say you're in a situation where it doesn't really reflect all the way back to the person who didn't take the feedback, it just reflects on you as a leader with other leaders in the organization.

Speaker 2: 18:46

Keep talking, Karman. I'm not sure I understand yet. What are you what what's your real question?

Karman: 18:52

I'm thinking about uh say a process where there, so there is an outcome, there's a product that's being created, and as the leader, you're responsible for this product. And you're also responsible for the people who are creating pieces of that product, but that's as an organization, that's kind of behind the curtain, you know, like all the organization cares about is our toothbrush not going to kill people or you know, make their teeth fall out or whatever. Um, and so the consequences of the person farther down the chain deciding, I'm gonna take that feedback, I'm not gonna take that feedback. Like there are no, there probably are no consequences for the person who's making that decision, because as an org organizationally, the consequence is gonna hit the leader, not the person. Because the three brift crushes shit and not.

Scott: 20:01

So if we if ideally, in my mind, okay, we didn't launch the product on time, or right, the product actually causes harm.

Karman: 20:12

Yeah, good examples, right?

Scott: 20:14

Then yeah, the leaders on the hook, ultimately, and where down the line, I mean, that likely has to trickle down. You decided you didn't want to use nylon bristles, you thought steel bristles would be better for cleaning teeth.

Speaker 2: 20:30

Well, and and let's make the distinction here. There's feedback and then there's tell.

Scott: 20:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:36

Okay. And feedback to me is not you have to. Okay. If I come in and say you have to, that's not feedback. That's directive. And there are absolutely things that leaders must say, you have to. When someone says, no, I don't, okay, that's that's a very clear piece, right? But if it's, you know, uh something that there is room for an employee to interpret or go left or right, Scott's art is an example of that. Art is not, there's nothing perfect about art. There is nothing like it has to be one way or another. It's an opinion. And an expression of your personal whatever. Expression, right? Um, I can't tell you how many times I see things on LinkedIn where people have gotten feedback about their hair. It's too short, it's too long, it's too curly, it's not straight enough, it's not the right color, or the clothes that you wear. Whether or not how you handled, you know, like you should have. I've had people tell me, you should have given that person the one-two. They needed to be yelled at, they need to be talked to. Well, you know, Karman, I don't very often raise my voice, I don't very often talk to anyone. And yet I've been told I needed to be stronger, right? Well, the way that I lead is not necessarily with power and authority and using it and lording it over. And yet, have I gotten that feedback throughout my career that I needed to be harsher? Yeah, I have.

Scott: 22:26

I I get that all the time.

Karman: 22:30

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Scott: 22:34

I like you should be firmer.

Karman: 22:36

You should like you should say what you really think.

Speaker 2: 22:40

Right. And and Scott and I, it's a great example. Scott and I lead differently, right? And when we talk with one another about staff, let's just be, you know, this is what happens behind the scenes with executives. He's giving me feedback about how I should handle my staff. I'm giving him feedback about how he should handle his staff. And you know what? I listen, I consider, and then I make my decision, right? And I know Scott does exactly the same thing. And in the end, we both live with the consequences of those decisions. And sometimes Scott gets to go, told you so. And sometimes I get to go, and doesn't pass up the opportunity, I'm sure. And sometimes I get to do it exactly the same way. The thing that's interesting about that though, is for the two of us, and I would guess this is going to happen to anybody who's practiced considering feedback. Okay, practice considering that when someone comes back, they don't have to say I told you so.

Karman: 23:50

You look at them, you're like, Well, it went well, what didn't go well, what would what would you do differently?

Speaker 2: 23:56

And I see it now. I didn't see it then. You know, you told me, but I just didn't, I just didn't see it, or maybe I just didn't want it to be true. Okay. But that's the one of the things that's really cool about taking accountability when you get that feedback, is now it's not a matter of Scott dancing on my grave, it's a matter of going, see, I have someone wise that's in my corner, and he wants me to win. And sometimes I just can't get past myself. And isn't that why we have people giving us feedback? Is because I can't see it and I need someone else to help me see it. And it's worth the hey, I'm not saying you have to do everything that I am asking you to do or suggesting that you do. I am asking you to consider it, and maybe that's what we as leaders need to do is worry about our language when we're giving feedback. If it's a have to, it's not feedback. That's telling. Yeah. But if it's a place where you have choices, let them make the choice and make it very clear that they have choices.