The Leadership Line

Leading Through Change

• Tammy Rogers and Scott Burgmeyer • Season 6 • Episode 28

Share episode

What happens when you're responsible for leading a change you don't fully believe in? This question sits at the heart of modern leadership challenges, where changes arrive faster than ever and often from sources beyond our control.

For leaders navigating this landscape, the critical skill isn't avoiding change but transforming how we process it. The most effective approach starts with recognizing our emotional reactions—the fear, resistance, or uncertainty—and deliberately shifting to analytical thinking. By asking structured questions about benefits, concerns, and potential solutions, leaders regain a sense of agency that emotional reactions steal away. This shift doesn't just benefit the leader; it prevents the "infection" of negative reactions throughout the organization.

The timing of change acceptance follows predictable patterns. What takes an executive team months to decide will take directors a similar timeframe to accept, and staff members need equivalent time to process. Leaders often forget this "multiplier effect," expecting immediate buy-in from people who haven't participated in the decision-making conversations. People respond to change by freezing, fighting, fleeing, or appeasing—all natural reactions that require patient leadership to navigate successfully.

Whether change comes from internal decisions or external forces, the leader's responsibility remains the same: to process your own reactions first, help others through their emotional journey, and create space for everyone to find their place within the new reality. When you do this well, even the changes you didn't choose can become opportunities for organizational growth and cohesion rather than sources of division and resistance.

Karman:

Good morning, tammy and Scott Good morning.

Scott:

C goin do

Karman:

I'm going down. What are you? No?

Scott:

what's going down?

Karman:

You're not going down.

Scott:

Oh okay.

Karman:

I mean he's like I don't want to go down, I want to live. I want to live Right. Well, there's a lot of change happening at my house right now. There's a big remodeling project that's getting started just on the other side of the door, and you guys know that change is one of the topics that I enjoy the most. I don't always enjoy the change itself, but I like talking about change. Of course you do so. My question today is for leaders who find themselves with change thrust upon them and who maybe aren't completely on board yet, but need to be for their organization. And so you're a leader, you're responsible for rolling out a change in your organization. You're not quite sure about it. How do you go about rolling that out anyway, and is it different if that change is coming from an internal or an external source?

Tammy:

So Karman ,, I actually love this question, and I love it because it is happening in every industry, in every company, to every person with a title inside of an organization, to every frontline employee. Change, whether we like it or not, is being thrust upon us, and is thrust upon us in ways that is uncomfortable for many. Even folks who are change ready, like, who enjoy change, oftentimes feel as if, you know, this stuff is being thrown on top of their shoulders all of the time. So it's an important thing to talk about and I think there's this impression sometimes inside of an organization that you know, if I, if only I was in charge, if only I could be the person making the decisions, you know, then we would be making you know, quote, unquote better decisions, right, and there is kind of this fallacy that somewhere someone is completely and totally in charge and they are, you know, they are all powerful, they get to make all these decisions and everything is fine, and they want to be in that seat.

Tammy:

And what's really really interesting is, no matter if you really look, even the CEO, president of an organization, traditionally has a board, OK, but even if you're in that particular spot, you know there's always state, federal, county regulations, right, there's, there's laws and there's stuff that happens, and so the fact of the matter is is that every single person, no matter what seat, that you're in, change is thrust on you that you have nothing to say about and just kind of getting your arms around that that, even as much as you want to be in control, the fact of the matter is there's a whole bunch of stuff that we can't and do not have the ability to control, and it's really like just kind of sit in that for a moment. No, you don't need the next title, right? There's always going to be change. That is thrust upon you, right? No matter what.

Scott:

And it's remembering that we're all in quote in the middle right. As you talk about change, I always think about what you know people. You say well, the only thing you have to do is pay taxes to die, right? Well, I would argue, you don't have to pay taxes. There just comes consequences. If you look at kind of the rate of change, if you think kind of in chunks of five years at a time okay. So if you think from 2005 to 2010, it got about twice as fast Between 2010 and 2020, four times as fast. If we look at between 2020 and now, it's even twice as fast since 2010. Well, since 2010, it's five times as fast. Since 2020, it's twice as fast as it was. It is being projected that it is going to be almost 15 to 20 times the rate of change by like 2030, 2035. Think about that.

Tammy:

Yeah, and if we think, even I think about even just AI, yeah, what has happened with AI since we first started talking about it today? Right, I mean, it's like, are you, are you kidding me? You know, like, what I can this AI will do. Fill in the blank, right, I mean, that wasn't even in my like brain. You're right and I? This is stupid, but I was Strange New Worlds is a television show. It's a takeoff of Star Trek that is out there and my husband is a Star Trek fan and we were watching it last night and they had someone who had a medical thing. They said to the computer hey, if we were to do this, tell us, you know, run the diagnostics and tell us what the opportunity of success is. Right, and I'm watching this in Strange New World and realizing that we can do that today with AI. Right, it's just like, and there was a time period when that was like futuristic and it's not futuristic anymore. It's actually in our own backyard and that's kind of the changes that we're talking about.

Scott:

And that's kind of the changes that we're talking about. It's like, you know, this was stuff that we watched as kids, right, that we thought would never happen. That is absolutely happening today and it's happening in a way that, you know, it looks just like how we imagined the future. It's kind of a weird thing, or maybe it was in place and like it was just held back and released just so like things on TV could be predictions and be made true. I don't know, like I'm not sure which.

Tammy:

I don't know. Conspiracy theory.

Scott:

Yeah.

Tammy:

Right.

Scott:

So then it really then becomes and personally I think about this often that you know, as leaders, how do we lead and plan for the change.

Scott:

That has become super important as individuals.

Scott:

Again, whether we're leaders, a leader in the middle, somewhere top of the organization, bottom, like to me, it doesn't matter.

Scott:

How are you making change comfortable?

Scott:

Like how are you looking at this? And like not being frozen when something changes and being curious and and I'm not saying let's just blindly accept, but look at what's good about that, what's potential risky about that, how can I adapt in that situation and there's probably decisions in there to why we even want to live with this, which might mean I don't want to live this, I can't accept this and I'm gonna go find a new job because at the end, like to me, at the end of the day, if you're not making the decision and you, it's something you need to do or have to do because that's your role. Your job in that moment is accept and align or get out, which is hard. Now I'm being harsh, okay. Now, that doesn't mean blindly, that doesn't mean let's go do a bunch of illegal shit. That just means, like I do have to look at this reasonably, and as a leader, I need to do what I can to make it as clear and as thoughtful as I can, but in both cases it just isn't.

Tammy:

You know, Scott, you said something and I'm going to take it back.

Karman:

Right.

Tammy:

Kind of unfold it, what the questions that you were asking were analysis questions, oh for sure, yeah, and and one of the things that to help us to make change comfortable, let's go back to your, to your phrase, right, when we actually put that analysis hat on, right, what's what's good about this idea? What are my concerns about this idea? How could I overcome those concerns? What could we do to make this as painless as possible? Right, what you have effectively done is you've moved into the logic side of your brain.

Tammy:

Most of us are in this emotional side of the brain when those changes come. Right, we are feeling the feelings. When we go to analysis, we start thinking the thinking, and that actually helps us problem solve. Now, whether I like it or not, that's the emotion, it's the hey, what can I do about that? That's the place where we take control again. That's the place where we get to make decisions, that's the place where we can get our feet planted, and that thing is actually the action that is going to help us move forward. So, when we're in this place and I don't like it feeling emotion right In that space, it is the action of moving it into analysis and thinking about it that can make us find that spot. So how do I do that? Well, if this has been thrust upon me by quote unquote top of the organization, okay, that's, put my analysis hat on. Go back and say help me understand.

Tammy:

I don't quite get how we got to this conclusion. My concern is so this thing that I'm concerned about how could we go about addressing that? These are analysis questions that you can have a dialogue with upper management about, not in a way that says you're doing this flippity, flippity wrong, but in a way that says I am doing my best to try to figure out how to implement it. So I'm asking some questions so that I have the information that I need, so that when my team asks me the questions that I need, so that when my team asks me the questions, I am supporting you. Because the place that we screw up is when we haven't gotten the information, done, the analysis, and we take all of that emotion and we push it down to that next level and we let them start wallowing in that this isn't right emotion, okay. So if we can, in that moment, just take a beat and say I'm feeling this, okay, that's great. Now let's ask the questions. And if I can ask those questions up so that I get the information, if I can't ask the questions here before I start to infect everybody else.

Tammy:

Because you know we've talked about this before how weird it is to have these titles and have people like look at us and defer to us. It doesn't matter if you're a team lead, a supervisor, a manager, a director or a vice president. You infect others, and so you have to think about the fact that you have a responsibility to not infect them. Therefore, you have to manage yourself before you just go ahead and infect everybody else because of that responsibility in that space. So, going from get out of the emotion, going into the logic, asking the questions or asking yourself the questions before you push that through the organization, it will save you so much grief later on. But if you're reactive, if you're not thinking, if you are reactive in those moments, you actually make it a bigger issue and the change becomes more painful for everyone and lasts longer. So that analysis, scott, I loved what you said Start thinking, put the thinking cap on and start asking questions and start problem solving, and I think it's easy for me.

Scott:

I'm generally pretty change ready, number one, and I don't have a way to say this without making it sound super elitistical and that I don't intend it that way. But you know we can have some fun with it.

Tammy:

So I will beat you up later.

Scott:

Yeah, that's OK. Yeah, yeah, it's one of it's. Just think last week. This is one of the traits. That is glorious and a pain in the ass. Ok, yep, in the end, I process information really pretty quickly.

Tammy:

You are so fast, Scott.

Scott:

And so part of that is many times I see the angles and lots of perspectives which I can get on board with things pretty quickly. Now I also know the downside of that is it becomes frustrating for me to then have to oh my God, we have to talk through this 37,000 more times. For some people Like that can be super annoying for me.

Tammy:

And you're impatient with that. I am impatient with that. I mean super impatient with that, and I know that, yeah, you push it out to others.

Scott:

And I know that, yeah, you pushed it out to others.

Scott:

There's a piece of this that we also have to look at it, and was just doing a leadership session last week talking about your what's your multiplier and thinking of change or how long something will take, as, the higher you go in the organization, as you go from oh, I'm a frontline supervisor and then maybe I'm a manager or a director of you know, whatever your titles are you become layers removed and your multiplier has to get bigger.

Scott:

Now what I mean by multiplier here when you're talking about changes bigger. Now what I mean by multiplier here when you're talking about changes, how long will it take for someone to accept it or get on board with it? You might think, oh, a day. Okay, I can tell you my multiplier is 20 to 30, which means, if I think a day, it really means 20 to 30 days For someone else, for someone else and that doesn't mean they're 20 to 30 times slower than me. It's like no, that just means that that's probably how long it will take them go through the analysis process and to go through all of these things.

Tammy:

And we forget this

Tammy:

I'm laughing because I'm thinking about an organization that we worked, we still work with, right and we rolled out a huge change. I remember how many months you spent talking with the senior team to help them make the decisions right. And let's just say it was. I think it was like four to five months that you actually worked with the senior team and they made some decisions and they were like, okay, we're going to roll it out and we'll roll it down to that next level and you know we'll have a meeting and then they'll roll it down to the next level. And we were like, uh-uh, you got to let that next level roll around in it. And they were like, why? And they were like, it's so clear. Well, yeah, it was clear, because the senior, the executive team, spent like four months working it out and having all these conversations.

Tammy:

None of those conversations were like the rest of the organization was not privy to that. And so here it is. And they were just like, well, we'll tell them and they'll be fine. Well, we brought it down to that next level and we'll call that level director level, right, and that director level. And I remember because I was working with the director level Scott, you were with the senior level, I was working with the director level and they were like struggling and working. Right Now I have to be honest with you. The senior team did a pretty good job of explaining things and answering questions and all that kind of stuff, but that director level really interesting. It took them about six weeks to get their arms around it and not even all of them got their arms around it in that six-week time.

Scott:

Well, and I can tell you, I can remember the day it was announced, there were a handful of directors that for that entire day because it was supposed to be a like a work session the entire day there were a couple directors. They were frozen, they could not get out, they could not Like, they were like they were. They basically contributed nothing. Now, I have to give one one of them were at least had the awareness to say I'm struggling here and I know that I'm struggling. They were able to verbalize that, which to me is great. That's okay, there's nothing wrong with that. But for me it's so weird to watch people be so frozen. I can't fathom being that frozen. I mean, I shared with you Beth is traveling, okay, so I'm taking care of the horses. I didn't realize we have to chain the gate because they're smart enough to open the damn gate. Okay, so I'm half a pasture away and I look and I see two horses in our front lawn and all I'm thinking was, if they get up to the road, this is bad. Okay, now, yes, it's.

Scott:

I had a little stress in that moment, okay, so I run to the garage and I'm like okay, what do I do? Like and just like center myself just for a second Cause you could get really easy to be frozen, like, like, okay, how do I get them from the yard back to the pasture? I'm like, oh, food, they will follow me for food. And so I dumped a little food on the ground and one just stood there and ate it and the other one I lured in with the food in the in a feed bucket, put them in, went back, let that finish and she followed me in like no big deal.

Tammy:

Yeah, in that moment it would be really easy to just freeze and say Well, and that's the research in all of this says right, we freeze, we run away, flight, we fight or we appease. I mean, that's like here is the natural thing that happens. And that's what we forget in this change. Is that in that moment, please know, those are all that emotion side. They're in that emotion, they're in that fear spot right In their brain, in that space. It is our job to recognize that. We have to let people work these things out, and that doesn't just happen in a nanosecond.

Tammy:

And Scott, those directors, they worked at this and they had conversations and they, you know, and I think it was about a full quarter for those directors and again, not all of them got to it in a full quarter, but I think that's about the amount of time that it took them, which, by the way, was about the same amount of time that the senior leaders took to make the decisions. And once those directors were on board, now we're pushing it down to staff. They don't really have a lot of folks that are managers or supervisors underneath that, so they really were pushing it down to staff at that next level. I remember them, the directors, then coming back and saying why are these folks so resistant, right, because it was like they had thought it through and it was now so clear to them and they were ready to go. They had staff that the vast majority came on board again in about a quarter, okay, but they had a year later a couple of holdouts right, that just were not going to let go of that particular space.

Tammy:

And it is this piece of remembering that, in change, if folks don't feel in control, if folks don't get to the place where they get to make some decisions and move some things forward, if they are not asking the question and getting into the logic side of their brain, they get stuck. Some of them are just going to freeze, some of them are going to fight, some of them are going to appease and some of them are going to freeze. Some of them are going to fight, some of them are going to appease and some of them are going to run away. And in fact that's what happens inside of an organization when change comes. The question is are you, as a leader, going to help them through those four stages and get them to stay in the fold, or are those four responses to change the things that then divides us and them?

Tammy:

And in the end, if we're making organizational changes, whether it is our choice or on the outside, we don't want to lose our great staff. If we lose staff, that's not great. Maybe that's the bonus of change. However, the staff that we want to keep, those are the folks that I think it makes sense for us to put the effort and energy in to get them out of those places where they are stuck and move them forward. And again, best way to do that logic analysis, options, alternatives and allow them to have a place where they are in control of something in the midst of that change, so that they feel that they're contributing.