The Leadership Line

The Double-Edged Leadership Sword

• Tammy Rogers and Scott Burgmeyer • Season 6 • Episode 27

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Every strength has a shadow side. That confident communication style that makes you so persuasive? It might be shutting down the very conversations you're trying to create. Those brilliant ideas constantly flowing from your mind? They could be overwhelming your team instead of inspiring them. Your nurturing approach that makes people feel safe? It might make your necessary feedback feel unexpectedly harsh.

In this refreshingly honest conversation, we dive into the paradox of leadership traits by examining our own double-edged qualities. Scott reveals how his abundant idea generation requires "ruthless discernment" to prevent overwhelming others. Tammy explores how her authoritative communication style can unintentionally close discussions rather than open them.  Karman shares how her supportive "mother hen" approach sometimes makes it difficult to deliver direct feedback when needed.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn when we explore how people respond to titles and authority regardless of how we see ourselves. Even leaders who reject hierarchical thinking must recognize that a simple "my boss wants it this way" changes dynamics in ways we can't control. But rather than feeling trapped by these realities, we discover how self-awareness offers freedom - the ability to consciously choose which aspects of ourselves to emphasize in different situations.

Karman:

Good morning Scott and Tammy. Good morning Karman.

Scott:

Yo Karman.

Tammy:

Scott, you are the weirdest man.

Karman:

But that's why we like you so true. A bubble off center.

Tammy:

The kind of folks I love.

Karman:

Which is actually a great lead in to something I was thinking about this morning. A great lead in to something I was thinking about this morning. Last week, we talked about competitiveness and how it can be a good trait. It could also be somebody's worst trait, depending on what you do with that and where you take it. And it got me to thinking about other traits, other traits that are considered good leadership traits, and what's the flip side, Like confidence as an example. You know, like a leader should have confidence, OK. Well, what can happen if that goes wrong? Being able to speak your mind, you know, can that go bad. So I guess I'd like you to each think about a trait or two that are considered like good leadership traits and what happens when the coin flips on those.

Tammy:

Scott. I think we should do like you should do yours, scott. I think we should do like you should do yours, like here's the upside of Scott, and then here's the downside of Scott.

Scott:

Oh, I thought we were just supposed to think of traits and I had a really good one. Well, you could do that one. No, I don't want to anymore.

Scott:

Oh, there's the upside and the downside of a Tammy trait right there. I haven't had an idea or a thought or a way to say, hey, this could be better or this could be different, or one's like, oh, I don't know how to solve this, like I can probably think of 30 things you could do. So I think you know that's a pretty fantastic, you know it's a pretty fantastic trait, frankly. Now, the downside of that is it can be overwhelming. It can be a place where you know what. There are times where people don't want ideas or suggestions. Sometimes there can be like oh, we have to filter through all of these to say which ones make sense and which one doesn't make sense. Right, so that can create work and effort that maybe we wouldn't need to take. So that, in my mind, is my first one.

Tammy:

So I think about that, scott, and one of the things you know, as you and I brought our companies together, that thing that you do, it's like we should do this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this, and I remember early on it was so much fun because I would be like no, no, no, no, yes, right. And that's actually part of where the ruthless discernment started to come out in that space is that it was like you had all these amazing ideas and we had to ruthlessly discern of all those, which one was the one we should go with right. And so you and I balanced each other out on that. Here's this great gift that you had and something that I will tell you I thought I needed in my life right, and you're right. Then there was too much, it was overwhelming, and sometimes it would be like come on, can't we just celebrate the fact that we're really good today, right In that space, and we balanced. We had to find a way to balance that out between us, right In that space. Yeah, so I liked that one a lot.

Tammy:

I, you know, I would say maybe one of mine is I think I've been given the gift of gab, like I am fairly eloquent and Fairly she says this is right. Okay, this is correct. This is the idea. This is what we need to do. That communication style that has so much like authority and confidence or whatever you want to say behind it, is a great thing, right, it works really well at keynotes and it works really well with children. There's a lot of stuff in that and it is persuasive and that's great. However, I think the downside of that is that it really oftentimes is not my intention to say that this is the right answer. It is my intention to say I'm thinking this what do you think? That is not how it comes across, and so, therefore, it can stop conversation, not extend conversation, and oftentimes it's my intent to extend and it doesn't come out correctly. That has been something I've struggled with my entire life been something I've struggled with my entire life.

Scott:

Yeah, tammy, for me as you talk about it when I think about it.

Tammy:

I don't notice that part, Because you know that you have another idea.

Scott:

So that's another reason why we're good together, right, right. But for me it's more of what I see and I know I fell into this when we first really started working together is you're going, and so I just let you go, like if we're co-facilitating, and it's like, hey, right. And I can remember us having the conversations like hey, you know, I have to get bigger and you have to get small, right, and us trying to figure out how to, and I think we have figured that out. So now I'm watching it as I co-facilitate with some of our team. They just defer, and it's like it's true.

Tammy:

It's true. I just did a session with Jen a week or so ago and I mean Jen just sat down. She just it was like oh no, jen, you got to fight for airspace, yeah.

Scott:

And again, this is the piece of. They have to fight and we have to force the space and create the space.

Tammy:

Yeah, make space. Yeah, have to um force the space and create space.

Scott:

yeah, make space you know, and so it's that, it's that balancing act. Um, I I tell susan like hey, I am just gonna sit and be quiet and you need to speak earlier yeah, and I do t-ups right, so I'll do.

Tammy:

Hey, jen, why don't you tell him about? Because jen will be very happy and she'll be there, and it's like here's the very intentional handoff in that space. Yeah, all right, Karman, are you playing? Or is it just Scott and I today that are revealing?

Karman:

Oh well, I like it best when you guys are on the hot spot.

Scott:

That's two weeks in a row. Two weeks in a row. That she's like, hey, I'll nibble at that bait and then I'm going to spit it out right back to you, reel, in your empty hook.

Tammy:

And what are the chances we're going to let you off the hook now, Karman? Well, probably pretty low. So you throw these questions and sometimes I don't think people even realize we don't know what you're going to ask us, right? So you just ask questions and we just then respond. So every once in a while, Karman, we're going to throw it back at you. So since Scott's done one and I've done one, it's your turn. What is one of your strengths? But what is the downside of that strength?

Karman:

I'm going to go to this comfortable spot where we think about me as the mother hen and listeners. I am more multidimensional than that, but it's a thing that I bring to this mix and you know so the great thing about that people see me as being caring. When I'm coaching with people, right, they can get really comfortable being honest and talking about things, because they perceive me as being a caring, kind person who will take their shit and not, you know, make it stink worse. You're safe, and so these are all nice things, and sometimes that doesn't serve me well. And so these are all nice things, and sometimes that doesn't serve me well, you know. So in a coaching relationship, for example.

Karman:

Ok, so now it's time to come to Jesus and have some harder looks at things, and people aren't quite ready for that from me. Or they don't come expecting that, or they don't come expecting that, and so when I am a little harsher or a little more pointed, it feels extra sharp because that's not you know, that's not the bucket that they had put me in. And I think that just over my entire career as a leader being kind I wouldn't say it was always the most important thing to me, but I would also say that sometimes I held back and I wasn't always really good at giving immediate direct feedback because I wanted to like wait and think about that and come at it in a way that was super constructive or whatever I, you know, wanted it, thought I wanted it to be, and I wasn't terribly great at that in-the-moment correction that could be just very matter-of-fact.

Tammy:

Yeah, because the supportive part of Karman was stronger than the. I need to have this conversation. Part of Karman.

Karman:

Right, and some of that, I think, is an overcorrection from being a super bossy big sister. You know, when I was 12. Was that the right B word? Well, you'll have to ask my siblings that. Ok, all right. But you know, I was like when I was in charge. I was in charge, damn it, and like you better, listen to me four-year-old, because I'm the 12-year-old and I'm in charge. I think you know I learned my lessons from that, from being that kind of leader.

Tammy:

And maybe sometimes the pendulum swung a little too far, just cracks me up, Karman, every time you talk about that, because I mean, I know you, you are not bossy and she's like I was so bossy. And yet, honestly, that is not how. It's not only not how I experience you. Your predictive index profile as a guardian right that's the mother hen piece. That is what I experience of you. Is this very supportive. Put other people first, you know, and don't really step into that big role and don't really step into that big role. And yet I also know professionally you have held these very responsible positions throughout your entire career and I'm sure you were. You know, like I am the boss. I've just never experienced you like that, which is always interesting in that space.

Tammy:

Because I'm not the boss in this relationship, yeah, and you know it's funny, scott and I are, but I don't, I don't. To me we're just a bunch of humans going and doing work, but I'm pretty sure that's not how everybody else sees us Right, cause I just don't think of myself in any way, shape or form like that in that space. But it's always interesting because I know, just with the title people defer and that is always an interesting thing to be at this space and place in my life to recognize that people defer to me because not only do I have this confident like way that I speak and all that kind of stuff, but I also have this big, huge title and that's so weird because I'm— To defer to that way is a little disconcerting.

Karman:

When it would happen to me, you know, I would hear in the hallway somebody who reported to me saying to somebody else here in the hallway, somebody who reported to me saying to somebody else, yeah, but Karman wants it that way, and I'd be like shit, anybody cares, but apparently they did yeah.

Tammy:

Yeah, that's why when Jen introduces me and she says this is my boss, and I'm like, don't do that, it's just I'm Tammy, you know, but I guess it's important. So, scott, do you like it when people refer to you that way, like you're the boss?

Scott:

Oh, honestly, the only time I think this is sounds funny in my mind, the only time that I think it really really matters, is when it needs to and it sounds like, well, that's really not an answer, but no, but like, hey, somebody is playing, well, I like you have to talk to my boss, or like they're playing a power card, then, yeah, we may need to kind of match that up. Or if, oh, okay, we need to escalate a situation and someone will feel good If you have the certain title in the room, then yeah, that to me in those moments. Sure, otherwise I don't care.

Tammy:

Yeah. So I giggled when you said that because I got an email this weekend that said hey, I met you at SHRM and you told me that I really needed to talk with Scott, that Scott was the boss and I was wondering if you'd make the introduction. And I laughed so hard when I read that this weekend because I actually had played that card at SHRM. I read that this weekend because I actually had played that card at Sherm. I'm not the right person, but Scott is, but he's busy right now, so we'll have to defer this conversation?

Scott:

Oh, I think I know who it is, yeah we don't need to talk to them. Hope they're not listening to this podcast. Well, if it's who I think it is, it was a company that you know what we should do. A podcast about marketing and what to do and what not to do if you want to make an impression and have a partnership with an organization. Oh, that might be an interesting Because they have reached out and I told them no and I think then they came anyway.

Tammy:

Oh, so now they're trying a backdoor.

Scott:

Yeah. If it's who I think it is, so I don't know for sure.

Tammy:

We'll find out. We'll find out later in that space.

Scott:

So now that we've shared, to Karman's question, like why does this matter? Why does it matter to be aware or to have some sort of some sort of clue, or you get a clue about what is good or and not good about this like why does that even matter, because everyone has these things? Right, we've each named one. We can likely, like we could say right, we can play the game. You know, tammy names one for me and one for Karman, and I name one for Karman. Right, we could play that whole game, but in the end of the day, why is everybody naming my faults here?

Karman:

Because you don't have the title.

Scott:

Yeah.

Tammy:

Oh goodness, you know that is the. That is this piece right? I think one of the spots for us, and one of the things that I believe in fully, is self-awareness allows us to be able to choose when to pull out a tool right. When to step into things, when to step back right. There's so many people that they just react. And when we are reactive, when we're not intentional or purposeful that is, the time periods that we sometimes don't get the outcomes that we want and don't, you know, move forward in a way that we had hoped to move forward Self-awareness allows us to stop for a beat and make a choice instead of just being reactive In doing so.

Tammy:

I believe that's when we actually get our brains engaged. That's when we are actually being able to think things through and make decisions that we think, at least in that moment, are the right decisions, and we might find out later that it wasn't. Think at least in that moment are the right decisions, and we might find out later that it wasn't. But I would rather be a thinking person and making those decisions than being a non-thinking person and having to kick myself later for not thinking it through in those spaces, and I think that's my why right? Is that self-awareness, so that I can choose and then, in those choices, live with the consequences of the choices that I've made, instead of just reacting? Scott, how do you see it?

Scott:

you know I I use the example a lot and I'll do a shameless plug of our of the chief optimization officer book, right, the awareness quotient. So part of it is we all have traits that are really, really good and if we overuse those traits they become an anchor. And it's really about how are you self-managing those traits and looking at the impact to the people, the individuals around you, the team around you, the organization, what kind of an impact is it having and how are you adjusting those? And it's funny because when you start to really think about it, if you've ever seen the movie Shrek the first one where he says ogres are like onions, right, they have layers.

Scott:

It really is how are you looking at this trait? That is an amazing trait for each of us, and how are you adjusting it? When I work with Tammy or when I work with Karman, but when we're working together, I might have to adjust it differently. And when it's just the three of us, how I adjust it is one way. When I'm in a different group, how I adjust it is a different way. Which means now I have to look at how I'm making these adjustments in a three-dimensional, four-dimensional, five-dimensional way. It's like the multiverse of self-awareness.

Tammy:

Well, scott, I like what you're saying because in the end this piece, we have a lot of folks who say you know, but this is who I am right, and they have this spot where they're trying to like you're making me be something different than I am. That is never the goal, right? The goal is to find a way.

Scott:

And my response when they say this is who I am is good for f***ing you. Yes, yes, I mean, it's weak sauce, if that is good for f***ing you, yes, yes. I mean it's weak sauce.

Tammy:

If that's how you're going to, be Correct, because the piece about that is I do want you to be you and I want you to recognize that the fullness of you is also a human being who can modify, who can make this part bigger right now and this part smaller right now, and I can overhear in order to make this situation work. I'm willing to adjust in those moments. It doesn't mean I'm not being me. It means that I am self-aware enough to bring the right part of me to the table, right, and that's that thing where anybody who is like, hey, I have the right to be me yes, you do, and let's keep growing, because there's a lot more to you than I have the right to be me.

Tammy:

Where's the rest of you? Right, because every human being is more complex than that. I had a gentleman the other day in a group and he said I'm really, really simple. No, he's not, he's not simple. He's not simple in any way, shape or form. He is unwilling to evolve, to see the rest of the story, and that's the piece that I think is kind of cool about this question, Karman, what's the rest of the story about that human being? And figuring that out for yourself and then figuring out how to use that for good, not for evil.