The Leadership Line
Leading people, growing organizations, and optimizing opportunities is not for the faint of heart. It takes courage, drive, discipline and maybe just a dash of good fortune. Tammy and Scott, mavericks, business owners, life-long learners, collaborators and sometimes competitors join forces to explore the world of work. They tackle real-life work issues – everything from jerks at work to organizational burnout. And while they may not always agree – Tammy and Scott’s experience, perspective and practical advice helps viewers turn the kaleidoscope, examine options and alternatives, and identify actionable solutions.
The Leadership Line
The Hidden Power of Embracing Failure
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn." This simple yet profound statement encapsulates a crucial mindset for effective leadership and personal growth. Our conversation dives deep into the transformative power of embracing failure as a catalyst for development rather than a source of shame.
We explore how our relationship with competition shapes our leadership style. Tammy shares insights from growing up with an ultra-competitive father who viewed drive and hustle as essential traits, while also witnessing the limitations that arise when someone refuses to learn from losses. The most powerful leaders understand that competitiveness isn't about crushing others but elevating ourselves—becoming more through continuous learning.
The distinction between allowing productive failure versus preventing catastrophic mistakes emerges as a critical leadership skill. Just as parents must sometimes let children experience natural consequences to learn life lessons, leaders face similar choices with their teams. When is it appropriate to let someone "clean up aisle five" versus preventing them from "falling off a roof"? These judgment calls require wisdom, empathy, and a genuine commitment to others' growth.
Perhaps most compelling is the research suggesting that what truly ages us isn't our chronology but our unwillingness to keep learning. Those who declare "I'm done" or "I know enough" accelerate their own decline, while those who embrace humility and curiosity continue evolving regardless of age. We discuss how spectacular failures often create the most significant opportunities for growth—if we're willing to get up, dust ourselves off, and try again rather than avoiding challenges altogether.
Ready to transform your relationship with failure? Listen now to discover how embracing both victories and lessons can help you become not just a better leader, but a more fulfilled human being. Share your own learning journey with us and join the conversation about turning setbacks into stepping stones.
Good morning Timmy and Scott.
Scott:Hi Karman, Karman, Karman.
Tammy:And since when did we become rock stars, Karman?
Karman:I love it. You know you got to start the day with some fan action here. Absolutely, especially in July fan action here, absolutely Especially in July. So Scott's in a new office today, dear listeners, and I have purchased for Scott a little gift for his office that he has not seen yet and you podcast listeners will not be able to see it, so I'll have to describe it. It's a little sign that says sometimes you win and sometimes you learn.
Scott:Nice, Nice. And what's really cool is I have Sharpies so I can change it. Sometimes you win and sometimes you're a loser. I mean you learn.
Tammy:Since he makes a big deal, that second is not a winner.
Scott:It's not. That's why they call it second.
Tammy:Second most competitive person in the world that I've ever met, Mr Bergmeier.
Karman:Yeah, second, but doesn't he want to be the most competitive person you ever met?
Tammy:No, because the most competitive person I ever met. That was their worst trait of their entire being and they were a wonderful being, and that competitiveness got them in trouble a lot, a lot. It sounds like they didn't understand how to self-manage they didn't know how to lose well. And when you don't know how to lose well, because you can't always scott, you don't always win.
Scott:It's true, I don't right.
Tammy:So you have to like be able to be a good loser Right, which is that thing. Sometimes you learn. I like the second right. Sometimes you win, and if you don't win then there's always an opportunity to learn something, to become more, Even if you win there's an opportunity to learn. That is also true, except for usually it's more painful when you don't, and so therefore the learning lesson becomes great. That is also true, except for usually it's more painful when you don't, and so therefore the learning lesson becomes clear.
Karman:that is also true yes well, you guys have, um, inadvertently, already started talking about the topic that I wanted to introduce today, and because that's how good, we are that's how good.
Tammy:You are right. A good Karman is what my sign.
Karman:So just this attitude. Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn, like why? Why would that be an important tool for a leader to have in their toolbox?
Tammy:Yeah, honestly, Karman
Tammy:, I love this piece.
Tammy:I come from an uber competitive family and that's one of the pieces that it's kind of fun for Scott and I because Scott and I do compete with one another all the time and it's a playful kind of thing back and forth in that particular spot.
Tammy:We're not really trying to crush each other, but it does egg each other on right in that space. And I can tell you that my father thought that the number one, most important trait that he gave his kids was competitiveness, this ability to go out there, and he saw competitiveness and drive and hustle kind of as the same thing. It was really, really pushed in my family and it wasn't about being better than others, it was about elevating, about leveling up, it was about becoming more in that spot. And, honestly, you know, while my father might have taken it a tidge too far because my dad was the person who's the most competitive person I've ever met in my life and he was not, he was not a good loser and it was that second part of that phrase right he didn't learn from those experiences. Those experiences frustrated him so much that he rejected them, that he pushed them away and in that spot that, unfortunately, was something that kept him from becoming more right, and so that spot for me is one of the great learning lessons that my father gave me.
Tammy:I got to watch him in both of these things and I said, how can I do this better? And that has been one of the biggest gifts for me. You know, you, what's the learning lesson? To get out of the valley.
Scott:I love the. You know this question is so important for us and, whether it's a leader or any human, frankly, from my perspective is if we take it away from like, if we loosen the definition of winning right so we can say, oh, I played Monopoly and I won, or I lost right, or I played a basketball game, or I played a round of golf or whatever it is Winning, you can look at it and say what is your definition of success?
Scott:Whether that's in this moment, or today, or this week, or this meeting, or my career, or a relationship with your spouse, your kids, whatever.
Tammy:Yeah, personally or professionally, right?
Scott:Personally or professionally, if you're not winning right Air quotes winning, then it's okay. What's preventing you from having that win or that level of success? And then what are you going to do about it? What's your course of action? What's your learning lesson? And sometimes, just taking the time to think about it, talk about it, reflect on it can allow you to say, oh yeah, gosh, if I wasn't such an asshole, maybe I would be more successful. Or if I, you know, actually listen to other people's perspectives instead of just shoving my thoughts down their throat. I mean and those are extreme examples, but it could be anything from gosh if I just did the dishes once in a while or I took out the garbage without being asked.
Tammy:Do you know, yesterday. So Michael and I well, as you guys know, we're readers, all of us at Become More Our Readers and my husband and I also read, and we oftentimes read together. My husband and I will sit down on a Sunday afternoon and Michael will read a book and then we'll talk about stuff as he's reading portions of the book Yesterday we actually had the opportunity and he's reading a book about aging and what happens when you age. Right, what are the things that you can do to still be the person that you want to be? And one of the pieces of research that he talked about yesterday that was so fascinating to me was that if you are done learning, that's when you become old. And there's this whole conversation in this book that he that talked about the fact like, what is the I'm old mindset kind of thing, and one of them is I don't have anything more to gain, I have nothing more to learn, I have nothing more to expand, level up that thought pattern. You know you tie that to this right. Sometimes you win and sometimes you learn or you die. I mean, you know you, if you, if you stagnate, if you don't take those steps, you know you're basically saying I'm done. It's not good for the human psyche to be done. We are, by nature, kind of these beings that want to continue to move forward, to make a difference, to find out how we can be the best version of ourselves. And I think some people get beat down in that process and and you know that's a whole nother podcast. But this piece that says their podcast, but this piece that says you can let it defeat you right, or you can stand when things don't go well.
Tammy:I have always thought about the fact that there's if I look at my life, I've had spectacular failures. That's how we talk about them. They're not little. I I have a tendency to if I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail full fledged, all out, right. The biggest piece after that is being humble enough to just get up, dust yourself off and then try again. Those moments are the moments that I really believe that I grew the most. You know there's lots of reasons. I had spectacular failures right. Most of them had to do with the fact that I was just, you know, running at it and I was absolutely convinced that I was doing the right thing until it was obvious that it wasn't the right thing.
Tammy:But the part of that is then saying okay, what's the learning lesson in that? What is it that you have to learn about you? Because for me, that stuff happens, and it happens oftentimes because of the decisions and the things that you've done. So where is the learning lesson in that? Not that others should have done it differently. It's what was for you in that moment the thing. And you have to be humble in that.
Tammy:And there is also a gift in humbleness which we don't talk about very much. We talk about confidence, right. There is this thing about not always having the right answer, not always knowing everything, not always being the person that's out in front. There is a really important place for us to learn how to do both of those things lead and follow, be confident and rely on others. Finding that spot in that balance is also kind of an interesting thing to play with.
Tammy:And leaders and remember a leader you can't have a leader title, but you can be a leader in any title, right? You're a leader at home. You're a leader with your friends. You're a leader of your own life, right? Part of that is learning how to do both of these things in this spots. So you are not so arrogant to believe that you are always the person that is going to have to be in front. Have the answer drive to certain things. So I like that piece of it too, in terms of that statement of I'm winning and I'm following at the same time. Those things should come together, yeah.
Scott:What I keep thinking about is Karman's question about why is it important for a leader? So if we step back and I like what Tammy says, I need to be a leader and a follower, kind of in that same spot. It reminds me of a question that I get asked frequently would I let someone fail on purpose? And of course, my answer is always it depends. Are they going to fail and fall off a roof and become a paraplegic? Are they going to trip and fall and cost us a million dollars? No, I'm not going to allow that to happen. Am I going to allow them to trip and fall? And now they have, you know, clean up an aisle five? Yeah, I might, absolutely, because the learning that can come.
Karman:I mean, I'm the one that you've let fail, scott. I've been on the cleanup on aisle five, and how does it feel? Karman
Karman:, I really hate it. I hate it a lot. I hate it a whole lot. Do you hate Scott? Well, sometimes, but not for that reason.
Tammy:That is an honest answer. It is an honest answer, but in the moment, in the moment, right, I'm pretty sure you're probably really irritated, right? That quote unquote, scott set you up in that space. So talk to us about that because, Karman, it's hard for us to see it, right. So what is it like in that moment? I mean, you don't like Scott Does eventually does it turn, or do you continue to have that resentment?
Karman:Oh, for me the resentment goes away. The.
Scott:Hold on a second. She said she did not like me. For that reason, right.
Karman:Right, because the Bullshit.
Scott:Like she's spinning it here.
Tammy:Well, it's like here's the deal. I'm putting that emotion in your mouth, Karman. I'm assuming that when you figure out that your boss has set you up right for that little bit of failure, that there's some amount of emotion. I decided to use the word resentment. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have put those words in. I'll let you tell your story.
Karman:Yeah, what emotion would I put to that Frustration? With some anger. You know that you feel set up not just like, oh, I failed, like that's one thing, but to feel like somebody set you up to fail is but I. I really think I interrupted Scott's real point there.
Scott:That was a good side left turn pass the baton Nice.
Tammy:Oh it is so then go to the next spot, right In that next place. So do you get over it? Honestly, like, is there learning in that? Is it worth it? Right, because there's whatever emotion there is in that. Is there a learning that's worth it at the end of it?
Karman:I would say when I fail, like just because you know like things work, some things work, some things don't work, whatever, yeah, the lesson in that is that's that's an easy spot to get to, and I think being part of become more has helped me be more intentional about that lesson, Although I think I think even you know, talking about our parents, like even my mom gave me that like okay, like well, what's the upside here? You know, and and I think I've always carried that ability to kind of make that switch, being set up to fail that one burns for a long time and it's and it's not personal. It's not a personal burn, but it hits me a lot harder. And it's not a personal burn, but it hits me a lot harder. And it's a lot harder for me to find the lesson there, because the lesson feels like I got screwed instead of oh, there's the thing that I should take away from this.
Tammy:And honestly, there's a piece here, you know, I would tell you, at least from Scott's and my perspective, we don't like purposely put this whole big plan in place for the learning lesson. It usually is the decisions that the follower has made that we can see it coming. Okay, the decisions that they've made and the path that they're going down. I could, course, correct them and tell them that they're wrong and that this thing is going to happen, or I could allow them to experience it and learn that this thing is going to happen. I will say, scott and I will do that.
Tammy:Second thing and, by the way, I'm pretty sure, again, I'm not a parent, but I'm pretty sure parents have done this forever, since there's ever been parents right, as long as it doesn't result in the death of their child, it has some huge consequence, right, because we oftentimes do learn in these tougher situations, right, and that's what we're talking about. And, yes, we can. There are a lot of folks who say you, let me do that, you set me up. Actually, you may have set yourself up and we just didn't stop it from happening.
Karman:That's a good distinction, tammy yeah, between what you allow people to learn, and your comparison to child raising is a good one. I'm thinking about when my son decided to go out for wrestling in high school. He'd never wrestled before and I thought this looks like a disaster headed our way. But you know, like okay, and he was super miserable. And then he had to figure out how to quit, which was its own lesson, and and then the coach convinced him to stay through the first match or meet. See, I wasn't even a wrestling parent long enough to learn the vocabulary and I said, okay, if you, if you hang on through that, then we can get a dog. And so that's how my son going out for wrestling made us dog parents.
Tammy:I love the reward in that, in that spot, and I assume he lost his first meet and his only meet.
Karman:Yes, first and only. And I thought like maybe, okay, well, like maybe after you, maybe after you have a meet, like you sort of understand the context for the practicing and that whatever, and like maybe it would change his mind. And at the end of the meet I was like so what do you think? And he was like he did not use this word to me, but basically he said I am so f***ing out.
Tammy:Well, think about this. Just the fact that it's wrestling, you're pinned. I mean talk about losing, I mean in all the ways in life that you can lose, you literally are pinned on the mat. That is like the visual of losing in that spot. Oh, poor guy, is probably what? 14, 13, learning this lesson yeah, what uh was he?
Scott:was he a what year was he? The freshman okay, oh yeah, that's even worse because, yeah, the upper, the upperclassmen are, are brutal brutal in, especially in that sport.
Tammy:I mean, they're brutal anyway, but in wrestling, oh you it, they're brutal I don't.
Karman:I don't know the young man that he was team partnered up with for practices, but it seemed like it was always the same person. Maybe that's a thing in wrestling Again yeah it's a weight thing and he really did not particularly care for his sparring partner and I think you know like that's a lot of intimacy with somebody that you don't particularly care for, so I think that probably didn't help.
Tammy:Do you know that? It's interesting, carmen, in terms of that particular story, because if you think about your pin, are you going to get up? Are you going to? You know, go at it again. What are those moments? You know I told you that my dad was not a good loser.
Tammy:If you look at the three children that came out of my parents in a relationship. My sister never learned to get up right. When she failed, she failed and she was done. She would then go to another thing. She would not stay in that thing and learn from that thing versus. I have had spectacular failures and I have stayed and I've continued to step through that.
Tammy:And it is really interesting to see how, if you look at it in your life and look at the people around you, who are the people who have gotten up, dusted themselves off, moved forward and learned right, and who are the people who then said avoid, take a left turn, don't go down this path anymore. Take a left turn and find out what's down that path and just kind of look at the people around you and where are they and you know what kind of human beings are they and where are they and what kind of human beings are they and where are they in their growth curve? I think that if you just sat down and looked at the people around you, you'd see very clearly that there is a gift in the learning if you're willing to learn it. But it does mean that you're not looking at what happened out there, that it happened to you. The learning is it happened to you.
Tammy:The learning is how do I look at this? How was I responsible? What do I need to do differently? And when you are in that kind of learning mode, that is the place where you're taking steps towards becoming the full human being, the full of your potential, in your life and without it and without it, without it, you never reach those pinnacle moments. And I think that's what's so cool about your statement. We win, and if you are a human being who says I'm not done yet, even in your winning you learn. But you also learn in your, in your losses.