The Leadership Line

Fostering a Culture of Thought: Tactics for Modern Leaders

• Tammy Rogers and Scott Burgmeyer • Season 6 • Episode 22

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Diving beneath surface-level leadership advice, our conversation explores how to truly foster environments where thinking flourishes. We unpack two pivotal tactics from our new book that transform organizational culture: the power of reading and the counterintuitive approach of "staying stupid longer."

Reading isn't just about information acquisition—it's about making connections between ideas that spark innovation. When leaders read deeply and encourage teams to do the same, they create neural networks of knowledge that drive breakthrough thinking. The magic happens not just in solitary reading but in the collective discussion of ideas, where different perspectives illuminate blind spots and challenge assumptions. As we share, reading approximately fifty books yearly provides a substantial foundation for leadership thinking, but it's the active engagement—highlighting passages, making connections between concepts—that transforms passive information into actionable insight.

Perhaps more surprising is our second favorite tactic: "Stay Stupid Longer" (SSL). This approach challenges leaders to resist providing immediate solutions when team members raise questions. When experienced leaders with organizational authority quickly offer answers, they inadvertently shut down thinking throughout their team. People learn to wait for direction rather than developing analytical abilities. By intentionally holding back expertise—"staying stupid longer"—leaders create space for others to develop and articulate their thinking. This builds problem-solving capacity throughout the organization rather than centralizing it with leadership.

Ready to transform your leadership approach? These two tactics represent just a third of our complete framework for building cultures where thinking thrives. Discover all six tactics and practical implementation strategies in our new book—because organizations that think together succeed together.

Karman:

Hello Scott and Tammy, hello Karman.

Scott:

What the f*** is up, Karman.

Tammy:

You're so terrible. This is my co-CEO, Karman, who is a potty mouth.

Scott:

It's true. Yeah, it's a Kohler, at least. It's an expensive potty. It's actually. It's a really expensive potty. It's a a toro t-o-r-o. You know one of those, toto? Oh, I thought toto was a band well, that and a really expensive, and a really expensive of okay, because it's a japanese toilet that's true.

Tammy:

That hangs usually off the wall.

Scott:

Yeah, and has heated seats Is it gold-plated no, but it feels like it have you sat in one I have, yeah. We rented an Airbnb that had one and I looked it up and I kind of threw up in my mouth a little bit when I saw it was $1,400 for a toilet. There you go, yeah. Okay, did for a toilet, there you go, yeah.

Karman:

Okay, did it make you appreciate the experience?

Scott:

more. Well, what I really appreciated was we were somewhere in February and it was cold out, and when you sit down on a heated toilet seat, there's something comforting about that.

Karman:

I actually have a different feeling when I'm sitting on a warm toilet seat but I'm not going to go there. I understand that's not our point today.

Scott:

No, I'm thinking, not our point.

Karman:

I want to talk a little bit about your new book. New book, new book, thank you. I love this book and you know we we um have talked a little bit about the idea behind the book and some previous podcasts. What I want to talk about today is the tactics that you guys tackle for helping leaders get a culture of thinking established or reestablished in their workplace Perfect.

Karman:

And you go through about seven different tactics in the book. What I want to know today is, like in your secret heart of hearts, which of those tactics is your favorite?

Tammy:

Of all the tactics in the book, which one is our favorite?

Scott:

Well, there's two ways to look at that.

Tammy:

Yeah, one, what do we see as being most effective? And two, like which one do I really just like, cause I like it.

Karman:

I'm looking for the second one.

Tammy:

Ah, okay, which one do I like Cause I just like it. Okay, you get to go first.

Scott:

Yeah, well, there are. There are six of them, six, and if you really want to know what my favorite is, the first thing you do is buy a book, and then I'm going to tell you my favorite is tactic number three.

Tammy:

All right, so tactic number three is what.

Scott:

When they buy the book, they'll know.

Tammy:

That is true. And since we're on a podcast, oh, I'm sorry, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott:

I don't even know what tactic number three is. I just picked a number to drive the point home.

Tammy:

Because it says that thinkers read oh nice. So that's the formal. I'll just read it out of the book. Right Tactic number three readers are thinkers. That's the one that you chose.

Scott:

Number three, readers, are thinkers. That's the one that you chose. You know, actually, that probably is my favorite and and it really is what I think about when I really started to read I mean back in the long, long days ago, but when I really started to read professional books and started to see the connections of oh, this book is very similar to that one. And when you start interconnecting the thinking and the collective thinking of the different authors, for me that's when light bulbs went off. That's where I thought I really started to make a difference, because not only did I connect dots, but then I started to actually apply the things and make changes, make refinements. Um, and then, for the other part, is when you ask staff to read, or we force staff to read, and you say, well, what was your best, what was your favorite learning lesson out of the book? And um, it's always, sometimes, you know, I love when they have something and it's sometimes fun to watch them squirm when they haven't read.

Tammy:

You know, I will tell you my best professor right. One of the things he would do is he would just sign reading assignments and then he would just out of out of a bowl. He would go in and pull out a name. Oh, that person had to actually respond to the question that he had about the book, which I always loved in that particular space as well.

Tammy:

I will tell you that our business book club, that we do along with that, which isn't always about our book, obviously, but um, that listening and talking with other people about the book, not just reading it yourself, but actually having people to like talk about it with that and like debate back and forth and to say what did you take out of it? Cause I think sometimes they take more out of the book that I did, or they see things out of the book that I didn't see, and I really love to hear other people's perspective. So that is the other side of that is, I don't. I like to read and I think it's important that individuals and if you want to truly have people think reading helps you. The conversation about the book is also the thing that I think expands that perspective. So I don't like to read in isolation, I'd like to read in groups, yeah, so from that standpoint that makes a lot of sense to me.

Scott:

A hundred percent.

Tammy:

So you stole mine oh well. And you did it just like randomly, which also pisses me off. You do this thing to me all the time Because, honestly, that is by far the one that for me, is the most meaningful. It's the place that I grew the most. It's the place that I think has had the most individual impact. And think about it, scott how many books do you read a year?

Scott:

You know it's probably around 50. Now it's down mostly because of time and they're starting to well, I can't say they're starting to say the same thing, because our book isn't saying the same thing. So it's probably around 50.

Tammy:

So I will tell you, historically, if you look over my professional career, it's been more than 50 this year. It's way down for a lot of other reasons in that particular spot, but I think that's one of the things that's also interesting is I like I read pleasure books and I consume them. And I read it and I'm done, but for some reason consume them and I read it and I'm done. But for some reason, when I am reading business books, my I'm much more in tune in that particular spot. I write in them, I highlight them and, um, I'm reading one right now that I just picked up on Monday and, um, I am excited to finish it.

Tammy:

And I was sitting in the plane when we were flying to Atlanta and I'm highlighting stuff and I am underlining and the lady next to me she goes what are you doing, you know? And I was like, well, that's how I remember things and that's how I tie in this book into that book. And for me it's not about consuming. It is actually about like being critical about that or making connections in other places. So when I read business books, I read it differently than I read a pleasure book. A pleasure book is more about what's going to happen next, and I am thinking while I'm reading business books, which is probably why it's my favorite in that but if I can't do that one, because you already stole that.

Scott:

Well, you can.

Tammy:

I can, but I don't think that was your real question, Carmen, right?

Scott:

You said what was a favorite. You can do what's your second favorite.

Tammy:

I'm going to go my second favorite Since you've answered what's your first favorite?

Scott:

you've answered the question.

Tammy:

My second favorite is SSL.

Scott:

Oh yeah.

Tammy:

Which we've talked about before. Okay, but it is a leadership tactic.

Scott:

Super Scottalicious.

Tammy:

Don't you wish, don't you wish that you were a dessert, but you are not.

Scott:

Oh, I see a podcast coming.

Tammy:

I do.

Scott:

If you were a dessert, what would you be?

Tammy:

scotch a room no, no banana pudding, I was gonna say lava cake you know, in that spot squishy in the inside, but you know, pretty delicious on the outside.

Scott:

Yeah, and that's. There.

Tammy:

Weren't so many witnesses around, I'd say no, you cannot say that one, and that is totally and completely inappropriate. And I know exactly where your brain was going, because you are naughty, yeah, very, very naughty. Okay, it's tactic two.

Scott:

SSL, which means stay stupid longer.

Tammy:

And the thing about staying stupid longer is when we answer people's questions, when we always bring our solution to the table, or our tactic, our idea, our perspective especially as someone that has been in the organization longer, has a little bit more experience underneath their belt or has a big old, flippant title right when we bring stuff to the table, people stop thinking and they just go. Well, scott and Tammy knows what that is, and that's true of every organization. Anytime you have an organizational title, other people stop thinking it through and they'll just follow you. Staying stupid longer allows people to bring their ideas to their table. It allows them to explore instead of just responding to someone else's thought, and so that's probably my second favorite in the book, and it's one that, as a leader, is really really, really hard to do. And, organizationally, if we can help leaders not bring the answer, but encourage their team to bring the answer, it makes the difference, and that's what I really love about that particular one. I think it works, and I think it makes people think instead of do.

Scott:

Yeah, love that. So what would you? What advice would you give the readers? Or are we just ending it on do? Huh advice yeah, oh, is that too shameful? That's what I was thinking too maybe it's not too shameful.

Tammy:

Maybe the part of that is those are two tactics, but if you want to know what the other four are, read the book.