The Leadership Line

Can "Lazy Leadership" Help You?

• Tammy Rogers and Scott Burgmeyer • Season 6 • Episode 20

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Leadership transitions demand fundamental shifts in how we create value. Moving from frontline supervisor to executive means evolving from performing tasks to developing others who can multiply your impact exponentially. Yet this critical transformation trips up countless leaders who remain stuck in comfortable patterns of doing rather than teaching.

During our conversations with executives across industries, we repeatedly encounter the same challenge: leaders clinging to the technical expertise that propelled them upward instead of embracing the new capabilities their position demands. One executive recently realized his struggling management team needed permission to think, not just follow orders. His revelation came after inheriting a family business where the previous leader's mantra had been "I didn't hire you to think, I hired you to do." This leadership approach created order-takers rather than problem-solvers, limiting organizational growth and exhausting the executive who became the bottleneck for every decision.

The solution involves both mindset and methodology changes. Rather than viewing delegation as abandoning responsibility, successful leaders implement calibrated transition processes. This means investing small amounts of time (often just 10-15 minutes) reviewing work, providing feedback, and gradually increasing autonomy as team members develop. The process moves people from C-level to A-level performance through deliberate practice, not massive time commitments. Organizations can accelerate this transformation by examining how their systems, approval processes, and hiring practices either foster dependency or cultivate independent thinking.

Are you struggling with this leadership evolution? Consider what activities you should start, stop, or continue as you move through your leadership pipeline. Assess whether organizational policies inadvertently create bottlenecks. Most importantly, recognize that your value increasingly comes not from what you personally produce, but from what you enable others to accomplish. This shift might feel uncomfortable, even "lazy" at first, but it's the key to multiplying your impact and creating sustainable organizational growth.

Karman:

Good morning Scott and Tammy.

Tammy:

Morning Karman.

Scott:

Hi, Karmen, hold on, I got to get my there, I got to get my light right.

Tammy:

They can't see you, scott, they don't care.

Karman:

He's really worried about his aesthetic this morning.

Scott:

Yeah, I am.

Tammy:

As he works in someone else's office, he probably doesn't even have a glamour light in his own office.

Scott:

No.

Karman:

If you had a glamour light in your office, Scott, would you use it on yourself or on your cat?

Scott:

The cat.

Tammy:

Tom. Tom would be in the spotlight with glamour light.

Scott:

Yeah, absolutely yes.

Karman:

He's a very handsome man.

Scott:

Well, and it's funny because I saw a I think it was AI generated or someone doing some kind of fun. It was a cat doing stand-up comedy and the joke was I don't bring them presents because I'm a good hunter. I bring them so they know that if they stop feeding me, this is what will happen.

Karman:

Such a cat thing to say. I love cats. Well, I'm thinking this morning about you. Guys have been traveling a lot. I can't even always keep track of where you are from one week to the next. I'm glad it's not my job to know.

Tammy:

Yeah, we don't say where in the world is Karman, we say where in the world is Scott.

Karman:

Yes, and I know that when you guys are out with clients, but also again at conferences, and you're talking to a lot of people like that's, that's why you're out there Right, connecting with organizations that are in various stages of whatever they're trying to accomplish outcomes, change, growth, accomplish outcomes, change, uh, growth. That they're seeking something is often why you guys are in the same spot and I think that you meet a lot of really interesting characters and stories in that process. So my question today is like tell us about some of the biggest like aha or like Ooh, that's a tough one People that you've encountered lately.

Tammy:

I love this one. We have people. Stories, I mean people we meet are so interesting, Karman, I mean so interesting. Okay, scott, you get to go first. I talk too much. It's your turn.

Scott:

Yeah, interesting is an interesting word, because not now, Karman, as you were talking where my head was at and you probably see in the chat I was putting gossamer. And for those who don't know gossamer, you need to just look up Bugs, bunny and Gossamer. But that image of the red, fluffy monster, right, monsters must lead interesting lives. And Bugs is doing his nails and then he says you know, I'll look there out there in the audience, people, people, right, it is fascinating. As you talk with folks and you watch, you know what they say, their challenges are and then what they are willing to do about it is always just flabbergasts me sometimes. I was with an organization this week and their executive team is new. They've done an organizational design, so they've elevated some executives and they're talking about how do they come together as an executive team and what is the work of an executive team. And actually I'm thinking there's like three or four clients that we've had this conversation with in the last few weeks.

Tammy:

This is really normal. It's like so what should an executive be doing Right? And there's that's not clear and that's interesting to recognize that as people go up to the ranks, they don't recognize that the work changes Right.

Scott:

And it's well. No, I was doing. I was doing this work or I was doing this task. And the advice I gave a CEO this week was you know, this person has some longevity with the organization. Really, I mean heart's in the right place, really working hard, and I suggest that maybe the conversation with this person needs to be that you know I love your passion, I love you, know your commitment. You can multiply exponentially your impact if you change your work from you doing to you teaching others how to do. I think it's an element of you say you want the change. Are you willing to do the change?

Tammy:

Do you know, scott, years and years and years and years ago I heard a consultant they had this whole thing called the lazy leader and I was so reactive I was like you cannot be lazy and be successful. Those two things like that's not okay. That word lazy I am super reactive to. To me it's like slacker, it's like you're not a good human being, because I actually like that thing that says you know, when I am like doing stuff, that actually is the way that I bring value to the world, the world. And it took me years and I really do mean this to kind of go oh, I get it now.

Tammy:

Okay, if I am doing all the work, I am adding value by being the doer, yes, and there comes a time period that if I'm the only one that can do the work, the organization's capacity is like stuck with just me.

Tammy:

I have to have other people be able to do this work, do this work effectively, efficiently and actually even maybe do it better than I am, so that if I can have one person do that, or two people do that, or three people do that, all of a sudden the capacity of the organization has grown and I've added value by having the capacity of the organization grow because others now can do those things.

Tammy:

It feels lazy because I'm not doing it. It's not lazy I've shifted the work and the output, the gift that I'm giving, the value to the organization. I've shifted what it is and that is something that every time someone moves from even like a director level in an organization up into that executive piece, they struggle with this and they oftentimes hold on. But that happens even when I go from being a frontline to a supervisor supervisor to manager, manager to director, director to VP, vp to C-suite. Every single time you have to let go of the doing of that job and find how do I add value in another way that helps the organization succeed? That's a hard one, scott. I love that one.

Scott:

Well, and what it really reminds me of is the book I read years and years ago. I think it was called the Leadership Pipeline, and the concept is as you move from one level of leadership to the next level of leadership, there are things that you need to start doing, there are things that you need to stop doing, and how do you get really purposeful and thoughtful about what those things are?

Tammy:

I love that and that it's like sit down and like what's like make a list, okay, I mean, it really is like what's all this stuff that needs to be done? And then look at that and saying, okay, what stuff of that should staff be doing? That's what I used to do. Who is going to be doing that? Right, and then what stuff no one's doing, or the person that I'm replacing used to do, what's that look like? And then if people didn't have a good role model in either of those places, it's sitting there and saying what's the best use of me, right, that the organization needs, and like what's that gap and filling that particular gap organization needs, and like what's that gap and filling that particular gap, and it's okay.

Scott:

I think, where where I see leaders get stuck sometimes is, you know, maybe it's not something you've done historically, or maybe they don't have people that can do it, and they either say, well, they don't know how, or they won't do it right, or it's faster for me to just do it. Here's the reality. All of that is probably true that is absolutely.

Scott:

That is absolutely real, and and I think it gets overwhelming for people because they're like oh, the and it's. And you know, what I usually tell people is like I get it today. That's where you are a week from, a week from now, a month from now, a year from now. Do you still want to be in that spot? And if the answer is no, then it's what is your action plan? And it can be all right, I'm going to work with Karman so Karman can do this one thing.

Scott:

We have three amazing interns. Yes, we do, and it's like all right, I was editing the podcast. First thing I had, like our intern, michael, who now is doing the podcast editing. He's done editing before. What did I have him do? He edited one, I listened to it, I gave him feedback, I maybe did some tweaking. The next one right, I had him listen to. What was it before, what was it after.

Scott:

Here's the exact things that I changed and we spent some time calibrate what I call it's calibration period. How are you learning and how are you kind of dialing it in? Marcella, she is right, she's exploding and expanding our reach on social media platforms. She is building social media posts and I'm looking at them and we're talking about hey, that kind of quote really isn't our voice. And so there'll be a calibration period where, yep, she's going to do the work I'm going to give her and eventually she's just going to do it and I'll have no right, I'll do no approval and no look. Michael's already at that point with the podcast, took him two, two times. Now, social media is a little more complex because there's voice and there's look and there's branding. So, yeah, probably isn't two posts. In that case, maybe it's a little longer and it's not that. Oh, that person is no, it's just like no, that's more complicated, but it's. Are you taking purposeful steps, even if they're baby steps, purposeful?

Tammy:

steps, even if they're baby steps, just to start to swing the pendulum. So I think a big part of this is sometimes as leaders in this space, we think, well, I should just be able to tell them and then I should be able to let go.

Scott:

Well, you know, tammy, before you continue, you said an oxymoron. Sometimes, as leaders, you said an oxymoron. Sometimes, as leaders, we think that. No, that it is not thinking. That is a logic leap that they are making Right and an assumption.

Tammy:

It is not thinking. Thank you very much. And in that space, it is this thing that says you know telling right, which is like I think. As a leader, I think my job is to tell. And there is a place for telling. There is a place for I need you to do it this way, I need you to do it this to get this outcome, okay. But there's also a place for explaining Okay, here's why, right. There's also a place for, hey, let's talk it through, let's kind of make sure that what I'm thinking, what you're thinking, is going together. Let's kind of like roll around in it and kind of spend some time so that together we are coming to the same conclusion for the same reason. And then there is a place to let go. You can't just well, you can, but successfully.

Tammy:

It's very unusual to tell and let go and have someone successfully get to the outcome with the quality and the efficiency and the understanding of what we're trying to accomplish. It very seldom is tell, let go, and so you have to plan for this middle spot, which takes a little bit of time but we're not talking about I'm going to spend eight hours today with you on this. Have them do something, review it. Have them do something, review it. Have them do something, review it and help them understand. We're not looking for perfection in this. We're looking for a draft and together we'll make it better. And when we have a draft, and together we'll make it better, they will grow through that. Together we'll make it better. Portion. That's the explaining, that's the working on it together. Piece. That's more the messy middle, but that's. Scott, when you think about that, how much time did you spend with Michael on that podcast?

Scott:

How much time did you spend with Michael on that podcast? Oh, actually spending with him if it was more than 20 minutes, because most of it was each of us doing our work and us coming back together thing. How much learning curve does that person have? How often do they do it? Because sometimes it's oh, like I think of most organizations budget once or twice a year. They might do a budget, or they might do a budget and a revised budget and you think of how long does it take for someone to get really good at budgeting? It might take several years because you only have a repetition once a year versus, oh, I do this five times a day. I can get five repetitions in a day. So I think it's also thinking through that like, well, if I only do this once a week, that may not be the thing to offload from you. If I do this every day, wow, I get this really. I get this big lift if I can shift an everyday thing versus a once a week thing, versus a once a month thing.

Tammy:

So I love this, scott, because here's the piece, right, we, I think, sometimes imagine in our heads I have to sit down and I have to design kind of the how am I going to get them from here to there? And you know that's going to take five hours. Where am I going to carve out five hours from my day? This piece of saying what is something that I can say, hey, I'm going to move this to them. It is something that has to be done frequently. I'm going to move this to them. It is something that is that has to be done frequently.

Tammy:

There's some repetitiveness in that and we can do quick little hits 10 minutes here, 15 minutes here. You know that kind of thing. In the end, right, you add up those things, you can find 10 minutes in a day. You can find 15 minutes in a day. 10 minutes in a day. You can find 15 minutes in a day.

Tammy:

It is a matter of saying this is important enough that I am going to go through that messy conversation in the middle and explain why and look at it and give feedback. That thing in these small little hits that over time in a very short amount of time, if you're choosing something that's a daily or weekly kind of situation. In a short amount of time, they're going to be doing it at least at a C level and then, as you continue to move them, get them to a B level and then, as you continue to give them feedback, get them to an A level. The fact of the matter is you have very quickly delegated something and they have taken something off your plate, and now they're adding value in a brand new way.

Tammy:

They feel good about it and you have capacity to go do something else, and I think there's you know, and in that space, instead of just doing what you've been doing and ending up in the same place that you ended up, you know, six months ago when this started to bug you about it, right? So it's like, do something small to move them so that you have big impact later.

Scott:

The other harsh reality a little bit here is if you have people who also can't explore and try it and learn on their own, I might suggest to you one of two things have happened you, as a leader, have stifled their ability to think and grow, and or you have a hiring problem. You're not hiring the right people to be able to think and explore and learn.

Tammy:

So, Scott, you just brought something up that for me is really interesting. You know, we just published the book Think, and so we're at these conferences and we're talking with folks. And I had a gentleman come up to me and he was like, after we did, you know, an hour presentation on this concept, and he was like, Tammy, I just figured something out and I said what? And he goes, I took over my family's small business. So this is a business my mom and dad, you know, created. I am second generation. And he said I'm really, really struggling with, like everything is coming to me, I have to make the decisions on everything. And he's like and I don't have time right To make all these decisions, and these are decisions that other people should be able to make. And he said and I realized that my mother's way of leading was to tell people his quote, not mine, right? I did not hire you to think, I hired you to do. And he said now I have a whole bunch of people who simply take orders. They're order takers. They come and they're very like they, they want to do the right thing. And so they come to me and say what should I do? And I have to tell them what it is that they have to do, and then they go do, but they're not thinking.

Tammy:

We have organization after organization after organization. Scott, this story is just illustrative of what we've seen in many organizations where we have neutered people's brains right, we have said, hey, you're not the smart one, okay, Just do it my way. And even when leaders ask questions in those environments, we have staff who won't answer those questions, won't think it through, because they know if they don't guess what the leader wants, they are seen as not being smart and capable. And so, unfortunately, I do think we have taught people inside of organizations I've seen it inside of families to not use their noggins right, To simply wait for someone else to give them the answer, and in that space they think that's good following. So I do think that that is true, that we have taught them the wrong thing, the thing that doesn't help them, or the organization flourish. I love that. I love that point.

Scott:

The thing that doesn't help them or the organization flourish.

Scott:

I love that. I love that point. Then to me the question is all right, I can train someone or bring them along for a period of time. I can say, hey, how do I start to look at myself as a leader? Am I neutering them in some sort of way or suppressing it? Or, do you know, am I not hiring quite right? Because sometimes we're after a certain you know, when we're not exploring their ability to think and learn, you know, and and starting to evolve that what else? I mean, if we kind of boil it down in my mind, it's what are the things that are holding you back, as a leader, from from elevating, and how are you starting to bring others along? How are you embodying or requiring or expecting people to think and grow maybe differently than you ever have before?

Tammy:

Absolutely, because where we come in is not the only way that we add value. That growth over time, that's part of every human experience, and when we don't purposely and intentionally grow folks, we stifle them and that is not good for the soul, right? So, yeah, it's like what am I doing? And then do I have that expectation and am I, as a leader, creating an environment that's fertile for curiosity, for growth, for becoming more? Absolutely, what's the? I think you had another one.

Scott:

Yeah, I. Then I'm wondering, and the third one is how are you you know we talked a little bit about hiring I'm wondering if it's then starting to look at, okay, me as a leader. How have I stifled and not allowed kind of this fertile land? I'm wondering then are there policies, procedures, processes that we've created that have those unintended consequences of also that stifling?

Tammy:

You know, I think. So you're really talking kind of like organizational, environmental, kind of systems, policies, procedures, like think about how many signatures do you have to have to be able to fill in the blank right? How many levels of permission do you have to go through? Have we have we or do you have to go through? Have we have?

Scott:

we or do you have to turn in travel receipts? You know to have an invoice paid.

Tammy:

Exactly. And, by the way, every organization but ours says yes to that, scott. So you know, talk about pain and suffering but, like that's okay, I know how to solve this.

Scott:

We'll talk later.

Tammy:

What? What are, what? Are all of those places right? And I think there is that system piece. One of the things, scott, I would tell you that we have seen in organizations is we have concentrated so much on your ability to do the task right. So in our hiring we only look at do have the right credentials, like I have the right education OK, then I have the right license and then I have the right experience OK, and that's like the criteria for hiring. When, in fact, are we looking at potential? Are we looking at the capacity and the desire to grow? Are we looking at potential? Are we looking at the capacity and the desire to grow? Are we looking at adaptability? Are we looking at how they interact with others? Because all of that is part of it as well.

Tammy:

And sometimes, right, we hire the wrong person because we have a person who has no desire to be able to like come inside of an organization and be part of that. They're like this is who I am, this is what I do and this is what you're going to have to put up with. Right, and oftentimes those are our energy vampires who don't understand that our job when we come into an organization is to find a way to embrace that organization's culture, work within it and become the best we can inside of that, versus saying, hey, I'm an individual entity and so I think that hiring piece and what we're looking for and how we go about hiring is a really big part of it. And then the systems that we use inside, because we use a nine box system. Are we actually looking at someone's potential? Are we looking at their curiosity?

Tammy:

Those are kind of the two dynamics in a nine box and are we measuring and saying, hey, we want to keep people that have high potential and high performance, we don't want to keep people who don't have high performance, don't have high curiosity, and the places where you are not meeting that we need to have conversations. Are we having the conversations to help people understand what those expectations are? So I love that there is some organizational systems in hiring as well as in setting expectations, as well as in growing. Are we doing the stuff that we need to do organizationally to help everyone succeed? In that it's good.