
The Leadership Line
Leading people, growing organizations, and optimizing opportunities is not for the faint of heart. It takes courage, drive, discipline and maybe just a dash of good fortune. Tammy and Scott, mavericks, business owners, life-long learners, collaborators and sometimes competitors join forces to explore the world of work. They tackle real-life work issues – everything from jerks at work to organizational burnout. And while they may not always agree – Tammy and Scott’s experience, perspective and practical advice helps viewers turn the kaleidoscope, examine options and alternatives, and identify actionable solutions.
The Leadership Line
There's Never Just One Right Answer: Moving Through Fear Together
Fear lies at the heart of resistance to organizational change. This revealing conversation explores how leaders can navigate the complex emotional landscape that emerges when teams face significant transitions.
What makes change feel so threatening to many people? We unpack the psychology behind those fight-flight-freeze-appease responses that emerge during times of uncertainty. Rather than dismissing these reactions, effective leaders acknowledge them while maintaining forward momentum – embracing the wisdom of "yes, it's scary, and we're going to do it anyway."
The discussion reveals a critical insight: creating safety during change doesn't mean eliminating discomfort. Instead, it requires validating emotional responses while preventing teams from wallowing in fear. As Tammy notes, "If you're walking through hell, keep walking" – because standing still only prolongs the pain.
We challenge the perfectionism that paralyzes many organizations, revealing how our educational conditioning makes us seek singular "right answers" when multiple effective solutions often exist. By reframing change as an iterative process of trying, learning, and adjusting, leaders free their teams from the paralysis of perfectionism.
The most powerful tool in a leader's arsenal? Reminding teams of their past successes. By highlighting how they've successfully navigated previous challenges, you build collective confidence for the journey ahead. While the path forward may not be perfectly clear, your shared history of overcoming obstacles creates the psychological safety needed to move forward together.
Ready to transform how your organization approaches change? Listen now and discover practical strategies for creating psychological safety that drives meaningful transformation rather than resistance.
Good morning Tammy and Scott.
Scott:Good morning Karman. Hello Sugar, I mean Karman .
Tammy:Wow, someone might get after you, mister, if like, from human resources calling.
Scott:Yeah, oh, I was thinking you were going to say Todd Todd's going to chase me down.
Tammy:Todd would be like wow, you have someone who calls you sugar Karman.
Karman:Yeah, he'd be like wait, they were talking to you. I thought you were salt.
Scott:Karman is salty.
Tammy:Karman is salty and people don't know Karman is so sweet and kind and once you get to know Karman, there's a little bit of that saltiness behind all of it, which is actually my favorite part of her.
Karman:Like a good salted caramel. That's exactly You're chewing along and then you hit one of those big pieces of sea salt and you're like, oh yeah.
Tammy:Yes, yeah, people are too too nice. I don't trust them. I need a little bit of dark.
Scott:I must I must be super trustworthy then are you a little bit of darkness?
Tammy:you're a lot. A bit of darkness, no, I thought it was.
Scott:The trustworthiness was like a scale equal to the level of darkness no, no, you'd have to read the first book to get the trust, okay, and there's god. I'm sorry, I got, I got, I got confused but the part of that is it's.
Tammy:It is truly to come back to that it truly is. If you're not real authentic, right, it's hard to trust you. And and if someone can't tell you like the hard truths, you can't, you can't trust them. And so you do need someone who is like authentically. They can't be happy all the time, they can't be sunshine and rainbows and sprinkles all the time. You gotta have that other side, Cause we all do, and so until that person shows that to you, you don't trust them.
Karman:So well, it's interesting that you talk about trust this morning, because that was kind of related to the topic that I had in mind. Well, you know, we're working with a lot of clients who are in big change seasons, and sometimes that's why a client works with us, because they're going through a change and they need a partner in that and we're really good at that. But we also have some clients that we've been with for a long time who are in new change seasons. I wanted to talk a little bit about the role of safety in change and maybe safety, trustworthiness, those things kind of fit together a little bit. So when your organization is going through a big change, what role does safety play? Can it play a role Inherently? Maybe change is just unsafe? What should you be thinking about as a leader?
Tammy:I love that. Maybe change is just inherently unsafe. Just that phrase, Karman, is such an interesting phrase. You want to play with that one a little bit, Scott.
Scott:I mean, I don't know that it's unsafe. I guess I'm still wrapping my head around the statement here. Yeah.
Tammy:So I think it feels unsafe. Okay, there's some people.
Scott:For some it would. Well, yeah, that's, that's super fair.
Tammy:It feels unsafe, right. And so that's the piece that I think is really, really interesting. I saw this I don't even remember whether it was a movie or whatever it is but there was a child who was wanting to go into the pool but was scared right and was kind of making the comment like I want to go, but it's just scary, I'm really afraid. And this old wise woman said, yep, and you do it anyway. And you know, I remember being like that was such an interesting way of looking at it that there's a lot of stuff in life change, marriage, having kids. You know, I just went through a death of two parents. I mean, reality is all of that is scary and you do it anyway.
Tammy:In that space. It's one of the things, Karman, I think you're right. I think one of the pieces when an organization is going through change, for many people they're afraid and they might not even want to use that word and yet down inside in their gut, yeah, this thing that they're having to face is frightening, right. And so there is then this piece that says as a leader, how do I manage through that? How do I help people through that? Because their gut, and then their brain, which follows that gut oftentimes is saying danger, will Robinson, danger, and in that space, if we can't help them through that, they're not going to make it through this.
Scott:I had never really thought about it as danger or fear or that's because you're a maverick, scott.
Tammy:Mavericks like say fear. Are you kidding me? No, let's go right. You don't have that thing in your gut that you're afraid of, but a lot of people do.
Scott:Yeah yeah. Well, I mean, they're weird.
Tammy:No, you're the weird one, honestly, but I mean, that is. You just said something really important, right? Yeah? Some people are going to look at it and say why are you afraid? Yeah, yeah, all the time You're not. What you feel is not valid, well, what you're feeling isn't valid, right? Well, they both are Okay. It's just a different response to the same stimulus.
Scott:Yeah, yeah, and I had. I had just in my head. I had not ever paired it with fear. I had always paired it with either not understanding or I have, as a leader, I haven't done my job to bring them along, which really is exactly what you're saying. I had just never equated it to that word before.
Tammy:To the foundation of where it came from.
Scott:Yeah.
Tammy:Yep, yep, and that's Scott. That's interesting, right, okay, that's one of the pieces like even if you look at the differences between you and I in that space is recognizing like, where does some of this stuff come from so that we can get past it? Talked to so many organizations where they're like just give them the information, give them the context, you know they'll get there. We might not have dealt with this thing and we've made the world unsafe for these individuals, not intentionally, right? And is it really unsafe? Probably not. Okay, however, they're still experiencing that.
Tammy:And then here's the deal If we allow them to stay in that space for too long, we then tell them that their fear is like valid, they, they have a right to be fear, to be fearful, that this it truly is. And then they sit in that fear and that's when they're like hell, no, I won't go. Okay, so recognizing that it can be fear, that it is not safe for them, is one thing. Wallowing in it and staying in it for any length of time and not doing the job of moving them through it yes, it seems scary, we're going to do it anyway. That old wise woman telling that kid yep, it's scary, do it anyway. And I think that might be one of the really the missing pieces of change is recognizing this emotional response to it, not the context, the literal, you know. This is the reason why the intellectual side of this, yeah.
Scott:And it it almost is an element of as we're talking about it. It's it's like the the re in change and the reaction that people can have in if we kind of use just fear as the base right, fight, flight, freeze, appease, and you start to think about that in in change many times that's what people are doing that's exactly what they are doing, right and so it's just.
Scott:It's interesting, I, I've, I've all. I don't know how I've thought about it is right or well, I'm sure it's right, because I'm always right. Uh, it's right or wrong, but we just we just like stump scott?
Tammy:I don't. This might be the first time ever in the podcast. Karman, way to go, Let me bring something to the table. And he's like wait a minute. This is new thinking for me.
Scott:I would have always categorized it as the emotional response of change which, if you back it is, I mean if you kind of just back the bus and go down the YYY path, I mean we're kind of cutting down to the core of it, and so it's just interesting to think about in that regard.
Tammy:And you know the piece about that is if we, instead of rejecting that they shouldn't feel this way, if we accept that they feel this way, it's our job then as the leader to go okay, and we're going to do it anyway. So it's realizing that it's there and moving them and saying it's okay that you feel that way and we're going to continue to take steps in this direction. I think the unsafe thing is when we tell them it's not okay to think that or to feel that it's the acceptance of that. What you are feeling is valid, it's okay, all right, and we're not going to stop there. So go back to. It's still my favorite quote if you're walking through hell, keep walking, okay, because stopping in the middle of it makes it worse. And so in this space it's like yep, you feel that way and let's go prove that we can solve this, that we can move forward, that there is a place where this is going to get better.
Tammy:We did not. We don't live in a world where everything's perfect every day, everything's good all day, that we're not going to have any problems or we're not going to have any pain and we're not going to have any difficulties. The fact of the matter is is life is more than just having everything be perfect and smiles and easy all the time. We go through peaks and valleys. If we look at what this organization has done, what you have done as an individual, you have successfully gone through peaks and valleys multiple times in your lifetime. Everything about your past behavior has said you have successfully traversed crap and found your way through it. This organization, we face this crap, this change, this thing. This is the stuff that's happened in the last five years, 10 years, 20 years. If we have successfully traversed this in the past, why would we think that we can't traverse it now?
Tammy:And so do we have the perfect, right answer? No, will we try something, learn from it, get better? Try something, learn from it, get better? Try something, learn from it, get better and get through the valley to the other side. Yeah, because historically, that's what we've done and historically, we're going to do that together in your brain and my brain. Together, we can do this, and I do think that's what we've done, and historically we're going to do that together and your brain and my brain together, we can do this, and I do think that's that big part of it. It's like acknowledge the fear, move past the fear and recognize. It's a journey that is going to be iterative, and I think that's the other thing about psychological fear. In this case it's like but what's the perfect, right answer? There isn't. It's a journey.
Scott:Yeah, whatever you pick that works is the right answer.
Tammy:Whatever you pick actually teaches you a lesson. Right? You do something and you learn, and you do something and you learn, and you do something and you learn. I think trying to find the perfect, right answer is the thing that freezes us and that's fearful. What if it won't work? Lots of things don't work. It's just the step to finding out what will work, right? I think that's another reason we're so fearful. It's like oh, it's not going to work. And then what are they going to say? It's information, it's data.
Scott:Well, and we've been taught for years and years and years. It's about getting the right answer so you can get the right grade.
Tammy:And, once again, that is the one right answer. Google has it, you know AI has it. There, the one right answer Google has it, you know, ai has it. There is one right answer. Instead of recognizing that there are so many right answers and we got to figure out what right answer works for us, for ourselves, for our teams, for our company, in the context and in the place that we're at, that fallacy of polarization, it's one or the other. There's no multitudes. There are multitudes of right answers and I'll tell you I'm sure someone listening to this is like no, there's not. I'm like there probably is lots of ways to get to the outcome you're looking for. Some of them are better than others in different contexts, in different situations. There's very seldom just one right answer. That's a hard one to swallow.