The Leadership Line

Beyond the Easy Button

• Tammy Rogers and Scott Burgmeyer • Season 6 • Episode 18

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Scott and Tammy return from hiatus with exciting news—they've published a book called "Think" that addresses a pervasive modern problem: our collective habit of shallow thinking. Rather than suggesting people don't think at all, they observe that many of us operate with thinking "as deep as a parking lot puddle," functioning on autopilot and habitually hitting the easy button when faced with challenges.

The conversation explores several revealing examples of this phenomenon. Tammy shares a three-year gardening saga where repeatedly purchasing "low-light" bushes ended in failure until someone finally asked about nearby pine trees, revealing that soil pH—not just light conditions—was crucial to plant survival. This perfectly illustrates how having knowledge without context leads to poor outcomes. Similarly, Scott reflects on workplace scenarios where employees rush to complete tasks without ensuring they truly understand requirements, creating inefficiencies and frustration.

Technology has accelerated this tendency toward superficial thinking. With Google, Siri, and now AI tools like ChatGPT readily available, we've grown accustomed to outsourcing our thinking. While these tools provide valuable information, they offer no competitive advantage when everyone has access to the same answers. The true edge comes from what you do with that information—how you apply it within specific contexts, how you question assumptions, and how you validate understanding before taking action.

The book's central message is transformative: successful organizations need "an army of thinkers," not just executives making decisions while others execute without question. When people at all levels engage in thoughtful problem-solving, considering both short and long-term implications, the organization's collective intelligence expands exponentially. Beyond organizational success, deeper thinking also fulfills our human desire to contribute meaningfully and make a difference. Ready to move beyond autopilot? Scott and Tammy's insights offer a practical roadmap for individuals and organizations ready to tap into their full thinking potential.

Karman:

Good morning

Tammy:

. Good morning, Karman. We've missed you.

Karman:

What's going on?

Scott:

Karman.

Karman:

I've missed you. I mean, I haven't missed sleeping, which I get to do if we're not podcast recording at some ungodly morning hour, but I've missed our conversations.

Tammy:

I actually have too, so it's good to be back.

Karman:

Well, one of the things that's happened while we were on our little hiatus here is you guys published a book.

Tammy:

We did. It's it is true, we did. Yeah, it was exciting.

Karman:

So it's called Think, and I wanted to talk a little bit this morning about the premise, which is that people have kind of stopped thinking.

Tammy:

When you say that, I wonder how our listeners took that, because, honest to goodness, every time I say that out loud, I watch people's faces and they're like, yeah, that's right.

Karman:

So maybe let's let's start today with what are some signs that maybe your team at work has has stopped thinking, has started pushing the easy button. Yeah, love that.

Scott:

Well, the number one sign is are they breathing?

Karman:

If they're breathing.

Scott:

They're probably not thinking.

Karman:

That is not necessarily true. Same time.

Tammy:

Oh, that dark humor of yours.

Scott:

Well, I guess, even if they're not breathing, you would say they're probably not thinking. So, really, just that they exist, they're probably not thinking.

Tammy:

Yeah, period.

Scott:

Which is really unfair.

Karman:

Way to create a huge market for your book, Scott.

Scott:

The entire world, not a single person is thinking If dead people can vote, they can buy our book.

Tammy:

Oh, for heaven's sakes, Mr. Burgmeyer. Oh, geez, whoa. Okay, I mean right.

Scott:

The whole thing about the right. That's the whole joke about how a couple Illinois politicians got elected.

Tammy:

Right that was actually when I was a kid. You know Mayor Daley and this tells you how old I am, because it was the old Mayor Daley, not the son of the Mayor Daley that that was actually what he was accused of is having people that were dead actually voting for him. So yes, that's.

Scott:

Then I could get really political and say, well, and if they're collecting Social Security, they absolutely not only can they buy a book.

Tammy:

They can afford to buy a book because they're getting a check.

Scott:

Scott you are going to cause all sorts of grief on this one.

Tammy:

This is why we should do it on a weekly basis, because all Scott does is blow it up in the beginning because he has he's had all these things he's wanted to say beginning because he has, he's had all these things.

Scott:

He's wanted to say, yeah, all of these experiences, yeah. So now that I've created, now that I've created a a fraction, you know, in our listening population that's like well that's not true. Oh, that's true right now. Now let's talk about the real topic.

Tammy:

Okay, that's go Scott. So how do you know people are not thinking yeah.

Scott:

If I back up just a little bit, what's interesting is when I've talked about the book, sometimes I talk about it as not thinking. Sometimes I talk about it how we kind of wrote about it. That thinking is about as deep as a parking lot puddle, that people are on autopilot, and it's not that they're not thinking, it's they've really just built a habit of doing things in a certain way and they become on autopilot, which is really the place where you're in the lizard part of your brain. You're just reacting to whatever it is, and it's the opportunity to say where do we need to start to pivot and think a little deeper? I think, Tammy and I would agree that it's not about you have to think deeply about everything. It's really about where do I need to think deeply and am I thinking it through and am I putting the right level of context around it to say how do we get better outcomes or how do we have better relationships or anything in between?

Tammy:

I think that's really the big message in this. It's you know, let's not insult the entire population and say that you don't think okay, Because we do, and it's a good attention grabber.

Tammy:

Yeah, exactly. With that said, though, we know that there are and it's kind of some reasons why and we could use the word excuses in this spot. Okay, However, you know, Carmen, you use the word easy button. It's like we need to fill in the blank and as soon as we whatever that thing is, you know the easy button is the first thing that comes to mind. The easy button is that thing that we have done five, six, seven times before and it's been successful. Okay, and while there is a purpose and a reason for us to have habits and to do things the way that we have always done them before, it is definitely not going to be the thing that's going to help us as an individual, as a team, as a company, succeed if we always hit the easy button and we now have, you know, we've had technology in our hand that has been the easy button for more than a generation. It's this thing where you go all right, I'm just going to go ask google and um, google for First Google, then Siri, right?

Scott:

And now chat GPT.

Tammy:

And now, and what's hysterical I don't know how many conferences we've been at this year, scott Something like 16 already this year and every single conference that we're at, they're talking about AI. It's another way that we don't need to do the thinking ourselves. We can let a system do the thinking for us. But I want you to think about that from a competitive perspective. If you and I ask the same question to AI, we're going to get the same answer, and if we then take action on that answer and not adding anything to it, not going any deeper than that, not pushing out further than that there's no competitive advantage in that. It is simply I'm letting someone else give me knowledge or information.

Tammy:

Part of you know that's what we really mean by not thinking, going and getting knowledge. Getting a piece of data is one thing. What are you doing with that and how are you utilizing that? And are you simply just saying that's the answer, or are you taking that and doing something with all of that? Is it? I need a piece of knowledge? Knowledge is not thinking, it's information. I need a piece of knowledge. Knowledge is not thinking, it's information.

Scott:

Okay, and it's almost yeah and Tammy, I love this part about what am I going to? Do with it and I have to wrap it. I have to wrap context around this, Because that nugget of information without context or without application, frankly is pointless.

Tammy:

And I'm going to do something. It's like, really, really simple. Okay, A couple of years ago we wanted to do some landscaping in the backyard, and my backyard is basically completely in shade, and we needed some bushes. And we needed some bushes. And so we went and said, hey, you know what is a bush that can handle, you know, low to no light? And sure enough, you know, there was the answer. So we went and bought those bushes, put them in and, you know, they died. And so the next year, yeah, got to replace those bushes, because we need a little bit of a hedge there, a little break between us and the church that's behind us. And so we went and, you know, did the same thing, looked it up and said, okay, these are the bushes. Oh, those are pretty, let's go ahead and get those and bought them. And guess what? Year two, another set of bushes died. And so year three which, by the way, was the spring went back to the nursery and said you know, we have tried two different kinds. This is what they were and they're not working. And they said tell us about the area that you're trying to put these bushes in. It said oh, it's low to no light. Blah, blah, blah blah.

Tammy:

Lady asked a bunch of questions. One of the questions she asked is said do you have any pine trees or spruce trees? And I'm like yeah, and she's like, oh, the pH in your ground is fill in the blank and you need a certain kind of bush that's going to like that kind of pH. So, therefore, you need a hydrangea? And I'm like a hydrangea, and she's like yeah, they thrive when they are paired with spruce or pine trees. Hello, context, yes, I had one piece of knowledge this bush can handle low light, but I didn't think about the pH balance of my ground.

Scott:

Okay, I'm not saying that. And think about it. You had the context. You had one requirement Right Low light. But that's not all of the context. What's the ground type? What's the pH in the ground? What's all of that will add to right? So it's almost like oh, low light, was the parking lot puddle.

Tammy:

Yes, it was. It was one piece of information.

Scott:

And you look at this and it's like was anyone doing anything wrong?

Tammy:

No.

Scott:

Well, I might suggest that where you bought them ideally would have done a little more discovery and asked some of these other questions.

Tammy:

Well see, I love that, Scott, because there's like who is responsible for that, right? Yeah, so should I have been asking a lot more questions? Should I have been asking a lot more questions? Should they have been asking a lot more questions, or were we both hitting the easy buttons? She said low light, here's low light. Right, I sold a bush Right Now. What's really interesting is, this particular nursery has a guarantee If it doesn't last, if it dies over the winter. So actually they should be teaching their folks to be asking a whole lot of questions because I only paid for one set of bushes and they've given me three.

Scott:

Well, and to me it's. I think of it as they were on autopilot. They were in task mode. You came, you said this I'm accepting that answer. I'm then going to answer only this, that question, and check the box. I'm done.

Scott:

I mean I, someone who was mowing the lawn, um hit a outdoor water spigot with the mower and busted the underground pipe. I don't know who that was. And so, of course, water. You know water is going everywhere and, uh, you know I get the water turned off, and whoever had piped it in their infinite wisdom didn't quite do it right. And I go and I, you know water is going everywhere and you know I get the water turned off, and whoever had piped it in their infinite wisdom didn't quite do it right. And I go and I have a part, and they're like well, we don't sell that part. Well, someone has to sell this part, like it has to exist.

Scott:

And I find out that whoever did it actually piped it with electrical piping instead of water piping, which is why I couldn't find the part. Because I'm looking in and the guy takes me and he's like well, here, this would replace it. I said I don't think it will. He says, oh no, no, it's this, it's this, it's this, it's easy. He says to me and I said like at that point I was a little irritated and so I handed it to, because I had brought, I had dug up, and I brought the broken, irritated, and so I handed it to. I had cause, I had brought, I had dug up, and I brought the broken part and I said, if it is so easy, will you demonstrate how these two parts would go together? And I handed it to him because I could tell it wouldn't. And he's like fumbling with it, fumbling is like well, that doesn't fit. And in my mind I'm like no shit, I told you that five minutes ago. You dumbass.

Tammy:

No shit, sherlock, you were hitting the easy button. I'm going to sell a part and get him out of here.

Scott:

He's like oh yeah, you have, you need this, here's the part you need, and off he goes and I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, and it's like I really think it's this piece of connecting. I need to ask some questions, I need to get some data and information. I need to ask them questions, I need to get some data and information, I need to put context around that and then I need to validate it. Does that fit, does that work, does it make sense? And so many times we're just in this autopilot task. Check. Sold part Check. Submitted the report Check.

Tammy:

Well and think about this. We see this with staff. Right, I need fill in the blank. They think that what I just said makes sense in their brain and they go okay, got it. And then they start running and they go and they, they create that thing that I said, that they interpreted in a certain way and they bring it to me and it's not what I wanted.

Tammy:

Okay, now, part of it is I didn't clarify what it was that I needed but part of it was this need to take action or thinking that you get it without taking a minute to verify and to ask questions and to make sure that we're on the same page. And those are the things that we see in organizations over and over and over and over again. It's the propensity to want to take action, the idea that I want to look competent and so that I don't ask those questions, and so I start running down the road and don't recognize that I have not made the connective tissue work, I haven't put it inside of context, I haven't ensured understanding, I haven't done something that a little bit of thinking to go beyond my first knee jerk reaction to that, I think, to kind of go back to something we said in the beginning, that's also a habit. It was a habit. I will tell you that when I worked for Paul and Frank the best bosses I ever had in my life I remember saying yep, yep, yep, yep, I got it. And Paul would look at me and he'd go you don't got it, you're just saying yes because you think you've got it.

Tammy:

And when I was 27, I was like why are you hassling me? I'm telling you yes. Right, it wasn't until much later that I understood what he was saying to me. Right, I was trying to look competent and by agreeing so quickly, I was actually not being competent. If I had asked questions to ensure my understanding, competence would have come, and I never did that. Asking questions, I thought I was supposed to understand and be smart. Asking questions is what dumb people do, when it's actually just the opposite.

Scott:

So if we think about, then that is the a little about why. You know what we were observing and what triggered us to kind of write this. So what? What does the book do for someone? So this is that was the why and that's the observation.

Tammy:

Well, do we want to answer that, or do we want the listeners to read the book and come back and say this is what it did for me?

Scott:

I mean, I think they should. I'm thinking like what's in the book, not like specific details. Of course we want people to buy the book. We didn't write it to write it. So, true, people write books to make money. Right Not to share information? That's crazy talk.

Tammy:

Oh for heaven's sakes make money. I don't think you make money when you write a book, but you know a book. But I think honestly, the piece about that is really that organizations need to think about if they want to be successful. They need an army of thinkers, not just the CEO, not just the head of operations. We need a whole bunch of people who have their thinking caps on so that when things happen, they can solve problems in the moment and solve them in a way that is good and successful for short and long term. And we oftentimes stop and say, hey, I don't have the answer. Let me go to a higher power and they'll give me the answer, and then I'll take direction and I'll move forward.

Tammy:

And I think there are some organizations that, like that, don't think, do. Unfortunately, that is not what is going to make any organization successful, because then you have the capacity. You have to rely just on the capacity of the leader, or leaders who have permission to make decisions, who have the permission to think things through. So the book really is about this thing that says, organizationally, how can I help and encourage people to think more deeply? All right, and it really provides kind of that background of this is what you can do as a company to promote deeper thinking so that you create that army that, in the end, is your competitive advantage. And eventually not yet eventually there'll be the thing for the individual to actually help yourself build your individual thinking skills right, but for right now the book really is what can you do as an organization to help your people expand and deepen their thinking?

Scott:

And, I would add, I can also take the same tactics that we describe in the book at an organizational level, a team level or an individual level, absolutely, and so it is really describing the reasons that contribute to the lack of deep thinking and the tactics for how to go about that.

Tammy:

Moving beyond it. Right, Because it's not that other people aren't thinking deeply, it actually is us, each of us, and we don't have to be stuck with the easy button. We can move past that very, very easily, because people are brilliant If we help them be brilliant, if we give them the space to be brilliant, if we tap into it. And there is such a gift when people start to use that stuff between their ears. It actually is part of the thing that makes us go. Yeah, I'm making a difference is part of the thing that makes us go. Yeah, I'm making a difference. And in the end, yes, I want organizations to win, but, Scott Carmen, we want people to win. We want people to add value to this world and actually, that thing between our ears, it's a really great place to start.