The Leadership Line

Are You Thinking Hardly or Hardly Thinking?

• Tammy Rogers and Scott Burgmeyer • Season 6 • Episode 17

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Ever wondered why we sometimes make snap judgments, nod along without understanding, or rush into action without thinking? It's not because we're incompetent—it's because our brains love shortcuts.

Cognitive biases are the brain's methodology for simplifying decision-making. They're not inherently bad—they evolved to keep us safe and help us process information quickly. But in today's complex workplace, these mental shortcuts can lead us astray when thoughtful consideration is what's actually needed. In this enlightening conversation, we unpack several cognitive biases through memorable character personas that make these abstract concepts both accessible and actionable.

Meet "Soundbite Steve," who forms opinions based on fragments of information, casting judgment without understanding the full context. There's "Get Along Gary," who nods enthusiastically while claiming to understand, but never asks clarifying questions out of fear of appearing incompetent. We explore the damaging leadership archetype of "All-Knowing Alberto," whose inability to show vulnerability creates a culture where employees stop thinking for themselves. And don't forget "Running Rodney," always eager to execute without seeking clarity on expectations.

The most powerful realization? These aren't just "other people" problems—we all slip into these patterns. When leaders exhibit these biases, they actually induce corresponding biases in their staff, creating organizational cultures that diminish collective brainpower rather than expanding it. The antidote begins with awareness and asking ourselves: "Do I need to think deeply about this, or is skimming the surface appropriate right now?"

Drawing from our upcoming book "Think," we offer not just recognition of these patterns but practical strategies for breaking free from unhelpful cognitive shortcuts. By understanding when to slow down and engage our logical brain instead of letting our "lizard brain" run on autopilot, we can make better decisions, communicate more effectively, and create environments where everyone's thinking potential is maximized rather than constrained.

Karman:

Good morning Tammy and Scott Morning.

Tammy:

Karmen.

Scott:

What's going on, norm? I mean Karmen.

Karman:

Scott, you seem less sassy than you were last Monday morning.

Scott:

I'm just warming up.

Tammy:

Yeah, he probably only got up at like 4 o'clock this morning, so it's for him this is, like you know, middle of his day well, I'll wait for the warm up and be very, very afraid yeah, they see Scott as the lamb. So interesting, sweet one, the nice one. Yeah, they see Scott as the lamb.

Karman:

So interesting, sweet one, the nice one, I'm speechless. So last week we talked a little bit about a new employee who was maybe struggling a little bit with information overload, their perception of information overload in a new job, and it is making me think about your book, think, and how we just all of us sort of deal in different ways with information overload. Right, there's a lot coming at us and in the book you explain that in the context of a couple different personality types, personas and how they process information, and I wondered if this morning you would tell us about a couple of those types of people and what you know. How do you recognize them and what are the pitfalls of working with people who have that way of absorbing information or not absorbing it?

Tammy:

So, carmen, what you're really talking about is cognitive biases, and you know that's a lot of words, a lot of syllables in that particular spot, and folks who are not into neuroscience you know it can really like your eyes glaze over as they kind of go through all the research. And so we actually made the decision to just take those cognitive biases, put personas on them and make it more playful so that it's easy to remember, right? And so all of us the three of us here, as well as anyone listening we all have cognitive biases because it's our brain's methodology of doing shortcuts for us so that we don't have to think deeply about everything. And there are reasons for those shortcuts, part of the reason why we're here today. They keep us safe, okay.

Tammy:

However, letting our brain do shortcuts all the time is not healthy for things where we need to really think things through, consider other options, all those kinds of things. So we have some personas to help us understand what those typical cognitive biases are and how you cannot fall into those habits when it's not appropriate, right? So, scott, which one of them is like? We have a bunch of them. What's one of your favorites?

Scott:

Before I answer that, what I was reflecting on is we should probably just take, you know, 15 or 20 seconds and just say, like the premise of the book, before we talk about the biases, right, and I think what triggered this book for you and I was really what we were noticing as we worked with clients and as we worked with ourselves and as we worked with staff, and all of it is that people wait a minute, wait a minute, I'm kidding.

Tammy:

Yeah, no, kermit, it's true, it was staff as well. I mean, we were like it's all of us right.

Scott:

There are, there are moments in time where we all fall into this. What we were noticing is lots of information coming at people some of it good information, some of it not good the lizard part of their brain, which is the habit, or these biases, versus working in the logic side of their brain, and what we realized as we started to look was this is more and more common than we think. We chuckled about it and said, well, like we probably should write a book because that might be kind of interesting. And so that's how these biases, right, these personas, were created. And it really is. The shameless plug for the book is really it is a book that describes these personas and the biases, as well as provides tactics to how can you get over that, how can you get out of the lizard part of your brain the reality that, even though you might not think you do this, you do. We all do.

Tammy:

We probably have already done it this morning in this podcast. Yes, and so we're not beating people up to say you know, you're a shallow thinker, you're stupid. We're actually saying, hey, take a look at this and recognize that this is probably you, and when you see it, asking yourself this question, do I need to think deeply about this, or is it okay for me to right now, just kind of skim the top of it and in the end we're going to need both. Right, there are times when deep thinking is critical and then there are times when, honestly, we can get by with just a little bit of a skim. It's really making that distinction, right, yeah?

Scott:

So to your question, who I think my favorite persona is? Soundbite Steve.

Tammy:

Oh, tell us about Soundbite, steve.

Scott:

Oh, tell us about soundbite Steve. Okay, so soundbite Steve is the person who hears nuggets of information. Maybe it's the first thing they hear, maybe it's just this one little piece of information and they accept that as the truth. They accept that as oh yeah, that must be right. They cast judgment, they make decisions, they take action based on what may or may not be accurate information. Now, part of that stands out for me because I had an old boss who was that and could be pretty harsh, arrogant, kind of an asshole sometimes and really was using information without fully understanding and would already make a decision and run.

Tammy:

Do you know, scott, consultants get blamed for that too. They go in, they have conversations with staff right In that spot. They will oftentimes hear this one bit of information and they take that and then they see the world through that moving forward right. It's like having the formal name confirmation bias in that particular case, where everything then falls into kind of that perspective and it's just this. They don't understand full context. They have one piece of information and they move forward with that information and that really is. That really is soundbite, steve, and I've seen that over and over and over and over in my life and it's something we fight when we go into organizations to make sure that we are not right. Soundbite Steves.

Scott:

Yeah. And again, we can chuckle about these personas and people will read them and hear about them and they'll be like, oh yeah, that's so-and-so. Or that's oh, that's such-and-such. Well, that's my old boss, I've fallen into that. There are times where, like I can think with the kids when they were little they'd do something or I'd hear something and I'd be frustrated and it's like I don't fully understand, right. Or you hear the tail end of a conversation and you think you know it all. I mean, we've all done this.

Tammy:

Yeah, one of my favorite in the book is Get Along Gary, and I will tell you the reason why Get Along Gary is-.

Scott:

Distant cousin from Hopalong.

Tammy:

Yes, distant cousin from Avalon. But I remember being 27 and my boss would say something and I'd say yep, I know that It'd be like he was trying to help me grow and see something or give me some information, whatever that was, and I had a tendency just to nod my head and be like yep, I got it, yep, I got it. Yep, I got it. Yep, I know that. And the fact of the matter is I never gave him the chance to fully explain. I never asked more questions. I wanted to look smart, capable and competent and so I was trying very hard simply to be like yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Tammy:

And unfortunately I didn't understand at 27 that by saying yep and like being ready to go actually made me look dumb and I didn't ask questions. I didn't, and I didn't ask questions, I didn't delve into what success looked like. I didn't. I just was like I'm going to go and take action. And that spot, getting along in that place actually hurt me. And he kept trying to tell me this. I mean, I recognized this 10 years later or so that he was actually trying very hard for me to not be a get along, gary, and I was not making it easy on him at all. Right? So that concept of just you know, give me the basic information and then let me go prove myself.

Tammy:

That is a typical get along Gary kind of thing that we see in workplaces all the time. I absolutely had it at 27. I don't have it at 64. Because I learned that lesson. I learned that I needed to ask questions. I learned that I needed to ensure that I understood what my boss said. There were certain words but I might interpret those in a different way and if I didn't, when I went and took action there was a really good chance I was not gonna bring something to the table that actually met my boss's expectations. So that's Get Along Gary I love in the book because Get Along Gary was Tammy at 27.

Scott:

Yeah.

Tammy:

Absolutely.

Scott:

What I've had folks yep, I know, yep, I know, yep, I know. One of my favorite questions to ask, which is a little bit tongue in cheek, is you say you know and your performance is not quite to par. So what that means is you either don't know or you're being defiant and or incompetent. Which one is it? And let's have a conversation about like, like, I know, you think you know it's okay to not know.

Tammy:

I think that's the piece Scott is. Get along, gary's really not knowing, not having the answer right, then not fully having you know, comprehension of the bigger picture, all of those kinds of things. That seems really abhorrent to a get along Gary. Get along, gary wants to please. We think we're supposed to know everything. That's an interesting thing with staff Like you're supposed to know. I mean, we've talked about this in the past Even executives sometimes don't know. We are actually making our best wild ass guess and we're going to see what happens and then we're going to learn from it.

Tammy:

But there is this perception that we're supposed to be all knowing and that in and of itself is a false, a false standard to set that you are supposed to know all things. And one of the great gifts, again, of being a consultant is when we go into organizations and into vertical markets that we know nothing about, we get to ask all sorts of like naive questions and we learn all sorts of things because we're not in that company, we're not in that industry and it allows us to stay stupid longer. And the longer that we can stay stupid, the more we learn, the more we grow, the more that we can actually long term add value and so that thing we think we're supposed to be smart, which is another character in this book, all knowing, alberto, do you, scott? Do you know? Does that persona hit you at all?

Scott:

Oh yeah, but I can't say why.

Tammy:

Oh, you can't say why, alberto, all-knowing Alberto.

Scott:

Yeah, I can't that one hits a little too close self-awareness.

Karman:

Scott is, I think, one of the lessons that become more group sort of like talks about a lot oh so you're saying that I'm all-knowing, alberto, if the shoe fits, I mean and again, there is a difference between having that cognitive bias and having it be true, or is that the cognitive bias showing itself Now?

Scott:

I'm confused.

Tammy:

It's like he's picking. We need to pick up our feet. It's getting a little deep in here in this moment in that space, but that's a spot, too, that we see in leadership a lot All-knowing Albertos. We have leaders who also think that they have to know all things that they have to like be in this spot where they can never show any vulnerability. They cannot show this place where they don't know, and it is an ugly side of leadership where people have to pretend as if they know all things. It's extremely ugly, it's very, very arrogant, and that is a disease that we see sometimes in supervisors, sometimes in middle managers, sometimes in executive managers.

Scott:

And it's even like this may not fall at. I'm on the fence of whether this falls in there. I think there is the bias where you think you know. There's also this you do know. However, you don't allow others to grow, and we see both ends of that. I was at a client last week. Everything was running through the leader, everything. I got this test result. I'm going to go turn this valve, I'm going to go do this no-transcript, and I asked I asked the person I was with. I'm like so is that normal? Yep, is that normal at all the locations? Yep, is that what you want? And they couldn't answer that question. They're like I'm not sure, because they're working through some leadership development stuff this year. Is that being addressed and do you want to address that? Because maybe that is what you want, maybe you want that, that oof, which is probably a whole different podcast.

Tammy:

It is a whole different podcast and I think that people don't understand when you are in that all-knowing Alberto space, not make space for others who actually could turn their brains on add value, do things well and independently of you. If you know all things and you treat others as if they don't know all things right, or they can't learn all things, or they're not capable of learning, growing, expanding, you have now just limited that particular resource. That's the piece that I think people don't understand about being all knowing Albertos. It's like, yes, you look smart, but then you become the go-to for everything instead of actually helping someone know that they can think these things through and come to really good conclusions. Right, yeah, there's a learning curve, I get it. Okay, but if you're, if you are all knowing and all powerful and you don't take people through that learning curve, you will soon have people who stop thinking and just wait for direction, and that will limit the organization, and that's not a leader's job.

Tammy:

A leader's job is not to limit the organization. It's to expand the resources, to be a good steward of the resources that you've been given and that includes people's brains of the resources that you've been given, and that includes people's brains, and so that's the other part of this, when we think about these cognitive biases. As a leader, are you helping people overcome their own cognitive biases so that we are developing their brains and those brains can be added to the treasure trust of this organization, because that is actually an amazing, it's wealth. It is all of this stuff that we could put into the organization, we could grow the organization with, but if we're like, sorry, your brain is capped, you're not capable, we're not doing our jobs as leaders, and I think that's a big part of this book as well.

Scott:

Yeah, and as you were talking about this, I don't know that we've ever talked about it in this way. If I'm a leader and I fall prey into one of the biases, I actually induce other biases into the staff.

Tammy:

That's correct.

Scott:

We end up diminishing their brainpower instead of expanding their brainpower, and maybe we're not inducing it. We're inducing it in that situation. They may then apply their brainpower in other places.

Tammy:

Think about this, scott, for just a minute. How many organizations have we come into? And there is a culture where it's like people just wait to be told what to do. They are doers, right.

Tammy:

And if management tells them what to do, they will run and they will go do and they're great, okay. But they have, over time, developed a habit that says it's not my job to think, it's my job to respond to leadership. And when we see that culture, that's a culture that we would say somewhere in their history and it could have been at another company that they've come in, or it could be in this company it was years and years ago. But there's a spot where we know that other people did the thinking and the staff is actually just executors. They go and execute.

Tammy:

Whatever that thinking is and to me that's one of the saddest cultures to walk into is a place where it's like don't ask me to think, that's not my job, okay, because we're diminishing that human being. And and I think that happens all of the time and again, some of us did it to ourselves. You know, things came in and happened to us and then we just decided that's how we were going to act. And when we make that our habit, we start to not think highly of ourselves. That's the saddest thing of all. People are not reaching their potential.

Scott:

Carmen, who's your favorite?

Karman:

I think running Rodney, you know, it goes back a little bit to Tammy's like oh, I have to prove that I'm competent and I'm a, you know, a super doer, and so that idea of like, ok, you tell Rodney, carmen, rodney, you know, and they're like got it, I'm off, I'm going to it's.

Tammy:

Consider it done without asking for context or deadlines or expectations or details or whatever. I think people pleasers Right. So running Rodneys are traditionally folks who they really do want to please others, they really do want to be seen as competent, they really do want to get that thing done and check it off and move on to the next thing. And it's not because they don't care, it's actually because of what they care about right in that spot.

Karman:

If you had all this time to tell me all the details, you'd just do it yourself. I'm saving you time.

Tammy:

Yeah, yep, and they're making all sorts of assumptions along that particular way, right, and it's one of those things. And we've had running Ronnies in our organization Scott and I both have and they are so like, you know, bright eyed and bushy tailed, and you, you hate to slow them down because of course, they feel like that's micromanagement and this piece of it is like it's not micromanagement. We want you to think before you run, okay, that's all right and it's like, but no, I, I, I got it, I just need to, I'm going to run. It's like, hold on, just take a beat, just take a minute. Right, that, that's hard because they're so eager. I love Rodney's and I hate when I am one, and I am frequently.

Karman:

If they take a beat, then they're, you know, slow decision makers.

Tammy:

Because of course, that would be just a terrible slow down to think it would just be an absolutely horrible organizational value. And yet we do know that sometimes we actually now when there's a fire, someone's dying, right, we need to run. There are many times that we think it's a fire and all it is is a tiny little flame and if we take a beat we can actually have a better solution. And therefore, running Rodney's, you know, don't have to run towards everything. There are times when they can just slow down, think about it for a minute and then take action.

Tammy:

Yeah, I love the characters, scott. I mean, we had so much fun putting them together and kind of matching kind of a persona to these cognitive biases and it's playful and it's fun and it's so much easier to like, read and understand neuroscience than having to go in and, you know, reading a manual on all of this, because we can remember, you know, the Terry, the trend followers and running Rodney's and soundbite Steves. Those are easy for us to hold on to and remember, and so we've really been playful with that and it'll be fun. The books it's in editing, it's in graphics and it should be out soon.