Krampus vs Civility - Which Side are you on?

Discover (or reminisce about) the history of Krampus and hear how Tammy and Scott deal with incivility in this weeks episode.

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Tammy K Rogers: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tammerarogers
Scott Burgmeyer:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/burgy
Producer Karman Hotchkiss: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karman-hotchkiss/   

Other Resources:  http://www.becomemoregp.com 

Transcript

Karman 0:30

Well, good morning, Scott and Tammy. Good morning, Carmen. How are you?

Scott 0:35

Happy Christmas, Carmen.

Karman 0:37

Happy Christmas. Welcome to the Become More Toy Workshop, where we're just waiting around for the big guy to show up. Nice.

Tammy 0:48

I thought Scott was already here. Yeah.

Karman 0:52

Sometimes he's late.

Scott 0:56

I really thought you might say was welcome to the Become More toy Shop, where we like stepping on the little people.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Oh, stop it. You are mean. Yeah, that is why. He's not the big guy. He's more like Grinch, right there.

Scott 1:11

Yeah, yes. Yeah. I'm well, no, I'm Krampus. Krampus.

Karman 1:17

And what movie is that from?

Scott 1:19

Well, there's several movies. However, if you watch um The Red One, which is the newest rock Christmas movie, Krampus is uh Santa's brother.

Tammy 1:29

And do you want to describe Krampus for us?

Scott 1:32

Oh, Krampus is like a goat human kind of. It's so it's like the evil side of the horror side of Christmas.

Tammy 1:41

See, this is why Scott knows Krampus, because even in you know, the like the best holiday of the year, there has to be an evil side, and Scott has found it. Yeah, now everybody knows like that thing, right? You think we're full of light, and then there's Scott and Krampus.

Scott 2:03

Yeah, Krampus is a horned, dark-haired, demon-like creature from Central or Eastern European folklore who is said to punish children who are naughty.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I wish you guys could have all seen Scott's face as he says that, as he does does his head wiggle, as we're gonna punish children who are naughty.

Tammy 2:22

And he was just saying that he was a turd, so maybe he he has to punish himself.

Scott 2:27

You can go to the Christmas villages, kind of the celebrations in some of the European towns. They have like the Christmas Christmas carnivals. There's a couple towns that have Krampus carnivals.

Tammy 2:37

I had no idea.

Scott 2:41

Yeah.

Tammy 2:43

So I'll be in Germany going up and down the river, right? Stopping at each of these gorgeous little villages, visiting, and Scott will be looking for the ones that are based upon evil instead of Santa Claus.

Scott 2:58

Yes, in Des Moines there is Krampus Cloth. It's the running of the Krampuses. That was December 7th in Des Moines.

Tammy 3:06

Oh wow. I did not know that. Do we do that every year?

Scott 3:10

Yeah.

Tammy 3:11

And have you ever run?

Scott 3:12

I have not.

Karman 3:14

That is hysterical. But he has been the parade marshal.

Scott 3:19

Yeah, yeah.

Tammy 3:23

He dressed up and got to go in a car and still run.

Karman 3:28

You know, the Krampus that all other Krampuses aspire to be. Yeah, absolutely.

Tammy 3:35

It's a Krampus wish.

Karman 3:37

Well, you know, Christmas can bring out the best in us and it can bring out the worst in us. Hence Krampus. Hence Krampus. And um, so what I want to talk about today is at Christmas, a Christmas gathering, a party, family dinner, you know, sometimes there are disagreeing opinions that come to the table, literally. And we have to figure out how to disagree without being disagreeable. And that is my question for both of you today. You know, at work, in your family, wherever this shows up, what are some things we can do to be true to our own opinions without causing a ruckus and alienating relationships?

Tammy 4:33

You know, Carmen, I'm actually glad you brought this to the table because if we kind of look at what's going on in the world, we're seeing this more and more and more and more and more, right? We had a pretty raucous election. We have people who are seeing things from very different perspectives, and folks are standing in this space where they're saying, I'm right, right? And like I'm taking a position, and I feel this high need to like like look all the way around me and say anybody who doesn't stand in my circle is is wrong. And we're seeing that in families, we're seeing that in workplaces, right? And we're seeing it um in it about like topics that I would consider stupid to talk about. We have an organization in the Des Moines metro area that they are not allowed to talk about sports anymore because they were getting in fights over football teams, right? I mean, and we're not even talking about collegiate football like Iowa, Iowa State. We're talking about pro football. It's an interesting place that the world has kind of walked into, and that this lack of civility is is more. I think we're seeing a rise in that. I think we're seeing an increase in incivility in that spot. So I'm really glad you brought this to the table.

Scott 5:52

Yeah, and I'm thinking there's some, I was looking for there's some recent research about incivility.

Tammy 5:59

There is a SHERM uh just actually sent out, and they this is their um, I actually like the Sherm stuff. There is an amazing bit of work that they have done in terms of looking at kind of those, like they're calling it the crossroads of incivility, if I remember, right? What that what that looks like. And it's kind of a cool thing in terms of what they're saying. They're saying that we're seeing most workers are saying they are concerned about incivility in the workplace. In fact, something like 25-26% of the workforce is saying, hey, I go to work worried about that every day. All right, in that spot. And they're also saying, I want my boss, I want my company, I want somebody to do something about that. I think it's interesting that Sherm, the National Sherm Organization, has said this is the number one thing that we actually need to do differently. This is the number one thing that we need to pay attention to in the workplace.

Scott 7:16

It would be good for us to step back and say, okay, how would we define this civility or incivility? It's a good idea. Because I think it's important. Like it that's a unique word. Like a word, I know, Tammy, when we when you first are like, hey, check out, check out this research. I was reading and I'm like, okay, I that's not a common word. Now, probably once we describe it, I think it's a common feel where people can could say, Oh, yeah, I've experienced that or I've seen that before. And and I almost think it's this piece of when I think of it, and I've not found a definition on the Sherm site. Interesting. Um, which is also interesting. When I think of it, I think of I can share or I can bring my perspective without people spazzing out. Like that's the the Scott version of the definition. Like we can have a conversation with people, without people getting animated, frustrated, whatever that is, and we can get through that without having this emotional baggage around the table. Tammy, would you describe it differently?

Tammy 8:38

Let me think about this for just a minute. I think civility, that's kind of how we experience it, right? Is that you know we can we can be ourselves with there's a sense of I can bring my ideas to the table and I can be myself. I I will also think it's this space where it's and I I don't like to use this word either because it needs to be defined, but it is this thing that says, I'm gonna respect you as a human being. So there's this place that says, I'm gonna leave any interaction with any other human being, I'm gonna leave that person with dignity. I'm gonna leave that person with they're still okay. I haven't in any way, shape, or form torn them down or made them feel less than. And to me, that's that's what civil civility looks like. It's allowing another human being, no matter their stance or opinion on something, to leave them with dignity and to treat them with respect. And with that, I think the behavior that comes is that I'm willing to consider, I'm willing to listen. I might reject the message and still disagree, but I'm gonna give them the space to do that. And in doing so, treat them with dignity and respect and expect them to do the same thing because civility is a two-way street, it's a multiple street. We have to look and say, hey, all of these people might see things differently, and yet they are a human being and they deserve dignity and respect.

Karman 10:16

I I like that part of it, the the two-way part, I think is the real key there. You can bring that as one person to the party, but it really only plays out for your organization or your family or whatever, if everybody is willing to come to that place together.

Tammy 10:37

I will tell you from my perspective, even when others don't do it, I think we have the responsibility to be civil anyway. And I think that's the hardest thing to do is when other people are not playing nicely for you to not step into incivility with them because that's what they're showing to you, and that's our justification. Well, they started it, and then the next thing you know, we just keep ratcheting it, pushing each other's buttons, but yeah, and I think it's really difficult to like not reciprocate like delight. And and I think that's where we oftentimes get in trouble. One person loses their cool. You know, we see this in bars, right? Somebody has a little bit too much to drink, you know, they look at your girl the wrong way, and you know, you say something. Well, the other person who was looking at the girl the wrong way has also had something a little bit to drink, and they're like, hey, don't talk to me like that. And the next thing you know, and we just keep climbing the ladder and escalating it and escalating it and escalating it. And the next thing you know, we're swinging fists. And and you know, this thing happens in the workplace too. And we have history with people. This happens in families. We have years and years and years of history and the things that you've done to me that we've not resolved. So this makes it so that we fill in these blanks and we don't take the time and we stop thinking about that's a human being cross the table for me. And a human being, regardless of who they are and what they've done, dignity and respect is still like the baseline for me. I'm not telling you I've never screamed and yelled. I'm not telling you I've never lost my temper. I've never, I'm not gonna tell you that I haven't used words that I regret to this day. What I am saying is I still think the baseline is civility, dignity and respect.

Scott 12:38

It's interesting because I went on to AI and I asked, well, what's the definition? Core definition, politeness and courtesy, using good manners, being respectful in your speech and actions, respectful interactions, treating others with consideration, even when you disagree with them. What's civility is not simply tolerating others. It is not weakness or passivity. So it kind of summarizes civility is about creating a positive and respectful environment for communication and interaction, even in the face of differences.

Karman 13:15

It's super interesting that they see it as an action, like you can't just passively, it's not passive.

Scott 13:23

In my mind, that's giving in. It's or ignoring, and it's not, it's not addressing the root.

Tammy 13:30

So, like that thing. I mean, we used to talk about diversity years and years ago. It tells you how old I am, right? We would talk about kind of racial diversity as you know, we need to have a tolerance for one another. Well, a tolerance for one another is stuffing, right? It's like, oh, I don't like you, but I'm not gonna say, and when we stuff, when we don't address, when we don't step into it, when we don't look for what's right, when we when we don't try to understand and be curious, and you just stuff it, there comes a time period when you can't stuff it anymore, and then stuff starts to leak out, okay? And besides the fact, even when you stuff it, people can see it. So it is this piece. I love the action part of it. And I think there is a piece about curiosity, trying to understand why you see the world that way. Not with this thing that says, I'm gonna change your mind, but with just seeking to understand, which go back to Covey, you know, seek to understand before being understood. That piece is, I think, a critical piece in civility. It's it's the thing that allows you to hit the pause button and not escalate it. I want to understand because it doesn't make sense to my brain why you see it that way. So help me understand. And that in and of itself, that act of seeking to understand, I think is an act of civility.

Scott 14:52

So if we go back to Carmen's question. All right, you're you're at a holiday party, and and I think the tactics we're going to talk about could work at a holiday party, at your family's holiday celebration, whatever that is, uh, at work day to day, when there is this friction, this rub, this oh, that jackass, whatever, you know, whatever that is, how do we remain civil so that it doesn't escalate? Because at the end of the day, there are outcomes we're trying to accomplish. If it's a holiday family thing, it might be, you know, I want my kids or I want my family or I want my parents, you know, mom or dad or whatever. I want them to have an enjoyable Christmas and be able to experience the family. At work, it might be we're trying to get a project done.

Karman 15:48

Where we may really need to talk about our disagreeing point to do, because that's how we get to the outcome.

Scott 15:57

Yeah. Or we need to strengthen our team because we're, you know, we have these fractions and and cracks and fissures, and we're not firing as well as we could because of that. So, like, what are the tactics that we that we use?

Tammy 16:16

I I think honestly, that first one, which we've already talked about, is that spot of get curious and seek to understand. Um, I think in that particular space, and and it's with the with the intent of not trying to change anybody's mind, with the intent really of understanding. I think that is kind of that first one. Um, but I think a second one is uh choose your words wisely. Words truly do matter. And I think people don't choose words that are conversational, they choose words oftentimes that are blaming, pointing fingers, calling names, right? All of that stuff. So your words and your tone, choose words and tone that are conversational versus things that escalate the emotion in the room. That'd be my second one.

Scott 17:14

What would you guys add to those two? I have a lot like a last one, but I want to save that to last.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Oh, do you think you're the rightest? Is that what you're saying?

Scott 17:25

No, no, no, no, no. It's uh if if none of these others work, then I think you have to do this.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Okay.

Karman 17:32

So, Carmen, what would you add? Uh, it's a little bit of uh related to your conversational tone, but use neutral language. Yeah, that's a specific, right?

Scott 17:44

Mm-hmm. The words. It it well, it's it's the words and it's and it's the tone and it's body language. And if you know that other person and you know their hot buttons, it sounds weird because it's like, oh, you're just tolerating by avoiding their hot buttons. Well, no. If I know talking about the presidential election, okay, yes, there was, and I'm sure in every family, some of you supported the winner and some of you didn't support the winner, right? And no, this is not a political perspective, but it's just this piece of if you know that's a hot button, it's probably not a topic you need to talk about. If it's especially if it's unrelated to the outcome you're trying to accomplish. That's sometimes what happens is people bring up these things that have no bearing on what you're really talking about, and you create friction for no reason.

Tammy 18:47

And Scott, you know, we can do that. For instance, I I might be able to say, hey, I know that my fill in the blank sees the world from politics there, and I have I stand on the other side. And so I can purposely just like I don't even need to talk about that with them because there's no need. And yet sometimes folks bring up stuff. And you know, I have uh a methodology that I use, and it's really it actually helps me be able to stand in those spaces. And so, first of all, I look for what's right about their perspective, because in every perspective that is out there, unless you're really dealing with someone who's kind of off their rocker a little bit, there is something in what they're talking about that you can probably agree with. There's a place that you can go, oh, I can get that. So if you're talking, you know, about children need, you know, don't have any respect for adults, okay? You know, you can say, Yeah, I've seen that. Okay. You're not saying that every child, you don't say that the whole generation sucks, but you could say, yeah, I I have seen, I have seen that. I've seen that in the workplace, or I've seen that in families. Look for something that you can agree with, and then follow it up and use a new word. Going back, Carmen, to your language thing. You can say yes. That's a part that says, I can see this thing, that there's a place where we agree. And then you don't use the word but you use the word and yes, and and lets you to go to another place. It allows you to turn the kaleidoscope, it allows you even to change the top the subject. And that tactic has gotten me out of a gazillion places where people wanted to fight.

Scott 20:39

And sometimes I may ask a question and just keep going on this. You know, kids are are disrespectful. And yes, I've seen that. Sometimes I'll ask a question, depending on the person, I might ask a question like, oh, I've seen that. And you know what I may just be curious and say, what is your definition of respectful? Or when you see, you know, a child or an adolescent who is being respectful, like what are they doing? Because sometimes it's just like, I want to understand their definition or perspective, or a compare and contrast of when you see the desired behavior, what's behind that?

Tammy 21:25

Yeah, what do you think is causing that?

Scott 21:27

I think the other thing is that I've done similar to that, is truly if they if they're gonna go down a path that's gonna be like may raise the tension, I'm and it especially if it has nothing to do with what we're talking about, I may just simply ask a question or make a statement of like, oh, I'm I'm not sure this is related. And is this something we need to delve into right now?

Tammy 21:56

Oh, see, my my I love your kind of methodology, and I have another one. So if we go back to this kid thing, it's like you're going in that spot and you're you can see that they're kind of getting ahead of steam, and then you turn around and say, you know, I've seen that a lot. I, you know, I have seen that, but you know, your kids, your kids are super respectful. Or have you noticed, you know, Carmen's kids, Carmen's kids, blah, blah, blah. And what you do is you bring the positive example back to it because it's getting into the negativity. And building negative on negative, right? So someone brings something negative and then you bring something negative and someone then negative. And like, no, turn and look at something positive. So that's another way that I get out of it.

unknown 22:42

Yeah.

Tammy 22:42

Because I'm like, yeah, you know, I have seen that. And here's an exception to that rule. And it's just, it's such a bright light. And that is one of the things that um has got, I really like doing that to people because they go, Oh, yeah, you're right. Especially if you can say it about their staff, their kids, their family, something where you are actually in some ways complementing them.

Scott 23:03

The last one I have, which is the if you really cannot, like there's just no way. And and I know at work this this isn't necessarily a tactic you can use, especially if we have we have to accomplish this together. I've just probably for the last 10 years plus, I have just gotten to the point of, you know what? Um if someone is going to be that uncivil, someone is gonna be that, you know, they're just gonna stir the pot, they're just and I don't have to be around them. I just don't. I honestly I just remove them from my life. And I unfortunately I've had to do that with a few people who I thought were friends, but they really showed their mess. It's a bummer. I don't have the tolerance or the time for that, and it's not helpful.

Tammy 23:49

I, Scott, I think one of the things, and I'm gonna differentiate this just a tidch bit. At work, sometimes you have to work with people. And that there is not a lot of choice in that. Okay.

Scott 24:03

Um, however, unless you're like me and you, and we own the company, we like we can do we just vote them off the island. It's really easy, yeah.

Tammy 24:11

And and unfortunately, not everybody has that has that has that opportunity. Sometimes their bosses say you have to work with these people. Oh, oh, oh yeah, there's that.

Karman 24:21

That's you guys can vote me off the island. I'm stuck with you.

Tammy 24:26

Oh no, you can also quit, Carmen. So here's the here's the fallacy of that is that is an option. And and here's what I would tell you. Sometimes that is what that maybe do. Okay. With that said, though, every individual has the right to have boundaries. And the way that you set a boundary without being disagreeable is that you don't say things like, you can't do that, right? That actually is escalating. You can say, Hey, I have a really hard time staying in conversation with you, listening to the to the dialogue, and and being productive when we talk about. So I would really appreciate it if we could have a boundary on that and have that not be part of our dialogue. Now, notice I am taking responsibility. I'm having a hard time when this happens, and I would appreciate it. That's a way to put a boundary up to say, hey, don't cross it. Now, do people still sometimes cross it? Of course they do. Do you have to repeat it? Yes, you can, yes, you do. But I will tell you, a lot of folks listen to boundaries if you're willing to set them up and you don't blame them in the process. Tell them what you need, not that they're a jerk. And that's the difference in that, Scott.

Scott 25:52

And I even think you can get more precise and prescriptive. So it might be about a topic. I might even say that's use that same methodology. Hey, when we talk about this project or we talk about this, we're changing the software because we have to, it's out of date, or whatever it is. You know, I find it difficult to move this forward because you get this way.

Tammy 26:18

I find it difficult when the when it gets escalated and we're more emotional about it. Don't put the word you in there. Okay. So that's another boundary. Guys, hey, I can I really have difficult, you know, like working when it gets heated. So, what can we do to keep things calm so that I can stay and be part of the conversation? So, naming not what they did, but what it feels like, okay, in that spot. But name it, I don't do well with drama. The staff knows that. I don't do well with drama at all. I don't do well with complaining, I don't do well with people screaming and yelling, I don't do well with someone who looks at me and says, you know, that that's not gonna work, and you know it. So like, uh, hey, if I knew it, I wouldn't be talking about it. And these are all things that, for whatever reason, is part of our dialogue today. And finding a way, and part of this, guys, in all honesty, what are the civility behaviors that are expected in your workplace or in your home? Michael and I, you guys know this, I swear like a trucker. I try not to swear in the podcast, but I swear because my parents listen, right? Um, so but I have a potty mouth and Michael and I know that swearing at one another, that's a family ground rule. So, what are the ground rules of civility in the workplace? And for me, that is naming the behaviors we want to see and addressing the baby behaviors we don't want to see.

Scott 28:07

And Tammy, it's it's funny when you say that. More than likely, your organization already has them, their values. Many organizations, and and we would highly recommend if you have not done this in your organization. Here's your value, you likely have values, you likely have some uh definition of what it looks like. I would get specific. Here are the behaviors that support this value. And you're gonna do that with each one of your values. And then I would go and say, here are the anti-behaviors when you are not aligned with, and more than likely, when you do that, civility is going to pop out in one or two of your values, and then it becomes a very easy discussion when someone is out of bounds. And this is not aligning to our value, our value of respect or our value of whatever it is. Like, I don't think you have to create net new boundaries as much as like, let's just look at what we have and how does it relate to this? And then are we ready to draw a line and say, we're not, we're not gonna allow this in our organization anymore?

Tammy 29:24

You know, we've done this over and over and over with organizations. I mean, this is this is like a key piece that we have done. And the there we've had people who said, well, then let's let's put those behaviors in a formal document. And that's something I actually oftentimes resist. And here's why. I want every member of the entire organization to have this conversation periodically, and I want them to define these are the behaviors that support and these are the behaviors that don't. So it's actually them doing the work and thinking it through versus hey, our value is integrity, and here's our list of supporting behaviors, and here's our list of ante, and we number them, and then we pull people into human resources and say integrity 1.7, right? No, it's not that, it's this piece every single time that the team starts thinking it through. We need their brain engaged on what is and is not okay in terms of how they behave and and and this piece about what civility looks like in the work in the workforce. It's not a once and done, it's not a list, it's not perfect. It's recognizing as human beings we have to be thinking about it and working through it and knowing that you're gonna trip and fall occasionally. But when you trip and fall, get up and go apologize. I screwed that up. I'm sorry. Okay. I didn't want what happened between us to happen and it did, it was my fault, and I'll continue to work on that. And again, that allows us to also be human versus getting called into human resources and told we have to be perfect. And if you take responsibility when you have uh acted in a way that you should not have, I can live with that as long as you're continuing to work at that and not bring it to the table constantly. What I can't live with is an organization who allows a person to be uncivil with their teammates because they're such a good employee. And if I hear that one more time, I I think I'm just gonna like you're not a good employee if you are not being civil to your peers, to your bosses, to your vendors, to the people that you serve. I don't care how good you are technically. And that same thing is true inside of your family. You don't get to treat your family like dirt just because they're family. So yeah, we can talk about how others are uncivil. We should also be looking at ourselves and saying, are we treating other people with dignity and respect? Are le we leaving them when we leave them as a whole person that we value versus someone that we just did something to devalue them. And yeah, we need to have an understanding of how we're gonna behave and be better people.