The Leadership Line
Leading people, growing organizations, and optimizing opportunities is not for the faint of heart. It takes courage, drive, discipline and maybe just a dash of good fortune. Tammy and Scott, mavericks, business owners, life-long learners, collaborators and sometimes competitors join forces to explore the world of work. They tackle real-life work issues – everything from jerks at work to organizational burnout. And while they may not always agree – Tammy and Scott’s experience, perspective and practical advice helps viewers turn the kaleidoscope, examine options and alternatives, and identify actionable solutions.
The Leadership Line
Is it time to switch up employee engagement measures?
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Employee engagement trends show reducing percentages of happy / engaged employees, year after year.
Yet, some organizations seem to be thriving. Could the way you're measuring employee engagement be wrong? Tune into this week's episode to find out!
Questions or topic suggestions? Let us know!
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Meet your hosts:
Tammy K Rogers
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tammerarogers
Scott Burgmeyer
https://www.linkedin.com/in/burgy
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http://www.creativesolutionsgp.com
http://www.aveeapartners.com
http://chiefoptimizationofficer.com/
Welcome to The Leadership Line, a podcast that covers everyday work issues. From dealing with jerks at work to feeling burnt out, Tammy and Scott's experience, along with their different perspectives, help listeners grow, examine realistic options and alternatives, and identify those actionable solutions to the tough issues we face every day at work. So today I want to talk employee engagement. And I also want to talk about ways that you can measure employee engagement that don't involve a Gallup survey.
TammyPrior to that, the needle did not move in this country for the last 20 years. So if you can't, if you spend billions of dollars on employee engagement and the needle doesn't move, what does that suggest to you?
SPEAKER_00I think it suggests that it's just the wrong measure.
TammySo all the stuff on here are the Gallup, you know, questions, and we should all measure, and that's how we decide. We should all follow in this footsteps and engage employees, engaged employees. It's the most important thing. So you're saying all of his research.
SPEAKER_00Well, no, I mean if we don't like how the results we're getting for the measure, change the measures. That's a tactic.
TammyIt is a tactic, and some people suggest that. But Scott, seriously, when you spend billions of dollars on an initiative, employee engagement, and quote unquote, the benchmark for measuring that does not move the needle in any significant way after 20 years. It's not working.
SPEAKER_00And I think it's what's interesting is there are organizations where it is working. So to me, what I find fascinating about this data is if we're in the what I think it's 35, 34 percent. Somebody can go fact check me on on Galaxy.
TammyThat's what it was. It has dropped in the last two years with COVID. But yes, that's pretty much the numbers.
SPEAKER_00And you know, there are some organizations that report 80 or 90 percent. Well, uh, statistically, that means someone's down in the two percent.
TammyOkay. All right, I'm with you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so right, so so well, wait. So there are some that are much, much better and much, much worse. You know, I think to me, the underlying question, so let's just set aside, yep, it's not as good as we would like it. How would we define engagement?
TammyOh gosh, Scott, you are opening a big, huge can of worms. You know how many people have fought that particular piece?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like because I think that's part of it is people say, Well, no, I'm engaged, I show up, I'm engaged, I'm happy. If we would just just to make a general definition of engagement, in my mind, it's are people willing to do more than the bare minimum, i.e., give discretionary effort. Are they willing to give discretionary effort? Are they willing to? Yep, here's the line. And as long as I do that line, I won't get fired. That's the bare minimum. What percent of the people would do more? Would willingly say that's not good enough for me. I want to step beyond that. And if you think about let's just use the metric, let's say it's 35%, Yowza.
TammyHonestly, Scott, I don't understand that personally. So I'm kind of an all or nothing girl. This piece about I'm just gonna come and skate and get by, you know, and only 35% are like, hey, I am all in doing my best, that makes no sense to me just as human beings. What is going on in someone's like psyche that they're like, eh, let's see how little I can get by with? Like, where does that piece come from?
SPEAKER_00I would tell you it's internal and external. So if I work with people I don't like, if I don't get along with my boss, if I think my boss is a bonehead, or why would I do more if I've been burned, if I don't agree with my performance management, all of those things, all those external. And then there's the internal things about how much pride do I have and what is my work ethic. And and to me, I find it humorous that we talk with folks and they say, Well, yeah, I want a promotion, I want to move up, I want to raise, I want to all that stuff. And then you hear in the same sentence, they're talking about that they're they're doing enough to get by. My favorite question in that scenario is if you were the leader and you were picking who to promote, how would you choose?
TammyIt's a good question.
SPEAKER_00And usually they're like, Oh shit, not me doing the thing.
TammyUh, that would be called painting them into a corner, Scott.
SPEAKER_00So now that anyone's listening, that if you've ever gotten that from me, you now know yes, I painted you in a corner.
TammySo it's like, what's the criteria? It is interesting, Scott, from the standpoint is I do think that there is a world of quote unquote entitlement, and and folks are like, you know, hey, I deserve in this spot. And it is this piece. And we just onboarded a new employee. And one of the things that I thought was super enlightening was to go through one of our onboarding exercises. And that's that piece that says, okay, here's that minimum expectation line, right? It's the place where, you know, if you're not doing this, you would get fired. What are the behaviors that would be below the line? And Scott, you gave in a behavior that's below the line. I gave a behavior that's below the line. And then the new employee gave a behavior that's below the line. And we went around three, four, five, six times so that we had, you know, a dozen items that, hey, this is the stuff that if you're doing this, you kind of get in trouble. And then it was like, all right, now let's look at the stuff that's at the line. What's a good employee? Now we're not talking about an awesome employee. We're not talking about superman. We're like someone that's just solid. You know, they're they're okay. If we go back to the old school grading that I grew up in, like now it's like good or not good. In my world, it was A, B, C, D, F. So this would be a C standard okay, average. What is an average employee? And again, you gave something, I gave something, the new employee gave something. We went around three or four rounds and came up with like a dozen things that, you know, a just a solid average employee, not gonna get fired. That's kind of your minimum effort. And then we went around and said, What's a great employee look like? Now that's one that's giving more than discretionary effort. And we went around the room, and that was hard and has always been hard. Every time we've onboarded an employee and we said, What's above the line? That was not easy for folks to answer. And yet, Scott, it's easy for you and I to answer. I mean, I have a whole list of stuff that it's like when you do this, man, I'm like, whoo, that is a rock star. Why do you think it is? Because even we love our new employee, right? She's she's wonderful. Why is it that new employees have a hard time naming that stuff that's above the line? What do you think? I mean, from that standpoint, because if they can't even name discretionary effort, how can they do it?
SPEAKER_00I believe one of the core causes of why people can't identify that, or even that they don't identify it high enough. Well, I turned my work in on time. Um, no, that's barely getting by. That's a C. Yeah, that's a C, right? Many performance management systems are very, very skewed to oh, you're performing high when your outcomes might be average or subpar. And so I think this what does really, really superstar look like? I think we allow average.
TammyYou just laid down the gauntlet to HR managers all over this country.
SPEAKER_00HR people don't like me anyway. We might as well add a few more.
TammyYeah, it's like, okay, your performance management encourages people to be average because high performance is average, and that's what you just said.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and let's be fair: anyone who thinks that is HR's fault, you are sadly mistaken. Whose fault is it, Scott? It's the leaders. HR doesn't give the ratings, HR sets up the system.
TammyThe other thing is, and we have heard this in every organization we've ever been in, and especially now, we can't fire people. We got some bad apples, but we can't get rid of them. We are so short-staffed. And I actually had this conversation today. I said, okay, so I just want you to hear, we're in healthcare, so let's just talk about it. You have a big old cancer growth. And you know, here's the deal you're unwilling to have surgery to take it out of your body. What do you think is gonna happen? And they all stared at me and I said, So if you want the cancer to keep growing, that's perfectly fine. But as doctors, don't you traditionally have a recommendation of what to do with that cancer, you know, and that piece, right? We say things like, we'll be short-handed, we can't do it, or HR won't let me. You know, you don't understand how hard it is to find talent. These people have special skills, there is no way can we can replace them. But if we are not helping people understand this is good performance, this is great performance, we're never gonna get great performance. And that's our own fault. And by the way, people don't want to be average. I don't know anybody that wakes up in the morning and says, I hope that I blend in and I'm just average. Everybody that I know has a desire to be more, but when we actually cannot name what more is, when we can't help them see what that is, if we don't walk them through that path to say this is average, but that's awesome, and you have the opportunity to be awesome, they're not going to be awesome because we haven't told them they could be and haven't shown them the path to get there. I think that's our responsibility, Scott.
SPEAKER_00I believe it's a shared responsibility. So, yes, we as leaders want to ensure that that is communicated and understood. And as an individual, it's also your role to understand that if you want to be excellent, how do you find out what excellent is?
TammyI'll grant you that, but I also think the easiest way to do that is to set the bar high. Yeah, and in setting the bar high, you will attract people who are achievers. Because someone who is an achiever, if the bar is low, they get bored. And in that boredom, they're hanging out with people they don't see as their peers, and they don't want to hang out with people who they don't see like themselves. And so they move on. I mean, one of the things, Scott, years and years ago, a company that you work for, when I first had the opportunity to work with that company, I went and talked, it was a large company, and I went and talked with some folks. Said, tell me about this company. And I remember this guy saying, You don't want to be too good, you don't want to be too bad, you want to blend. And I was like, What are you talking about? And he said, Well, if you're too bad, you get kicked. If you're too good, you get asked. But if you're in the middle, you blend. And he said, and then I have time to mess with my teammates. I've never forgotten that conversation, Scott. I was in my 30s and I'd never heard anybody speak like that. It was like, hey, I don't want to get kicked, I don't want to get asked, but I want to use my discretionary effort to screw with my teammates. Stir the pot. Unbelievable. So when we don't set the bar high, we give them discretionary time to use unwisely instead of wisely. So I think a big part of this engagement piece is not trying to say, oh, what do I have to do to baby them into gauge? I think I have to raise the bar. I think I have to show them what's possible. And I think I have to consciously make sure that people are rewarded with projects and opportunities and promotions and bonuses and time off or whatever the policy thing that your organization can do that I differentiate between high performers and average. And if people are not performing, I need to make them understand that they are not as valuable as others who are. I guess I can give them pool tables and I guess I can have someone there to like you know serve them beer at the end of the day. But I don't think it's about that stuff. I think it's about achievement.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it it I think it's about achievement and flexibility, both of which you can earn when you perform.
TammyWell, for heaven's sakes, a company would be foolish to have this hard set of rules around people that are performing. Because if you give them the freedom to find a way to perform and you're not like you have to be here at eight, I mean, come in at 8:30. Those people might be working at 8:30 at night. So to put all these hard, fast rules around them doesn't make any sense because you don't need to manage a performer. The performer is managing themselves in that spot. And if anything, you have to be saying things like, hey, hey, hey, hey, go home, you know, have a little bit more of a life. You can finish this project tomorrow. Because I don't know achievers who don't just simply want to go get it to achieve, right? And that is this thing that says, I know that I am capable of doing more, being more, and I'm not satisfied with just waiting around. That bores me to tears. I want to be the best version of myself. That individual is engaged, and I think we can help them be there by showing them how they can contribute and what excellent looks like and getting them in a place where they get to do great work, right? Things that they're good at and contribute. And we say, you know what, we couldn't do it without you. And that just keeps building that momentum and building that momentum. But it's up to us as an organization to set that bar high and to let them know that they can do more. And then you're right, that individual has to decide. And if they don't, then they're the cancer and they have to leave. So you don't let poor performers or average performers stay. You keep raising the bar so that you have a performers because a performers want to play with other A performers.
SPEAKER_01And that wraps up this week's episode of the Leadership Line. Feel free to reach out to us in the emails provided in our podcast description box. There we take topic suggestions and questions you'd like us to cover. Also, be sure to check out our LinkedIn pages where we announce podcasts every Wednesday at noon and share other topics. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next week.